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Could something like the Holocaust ever happen again?

Cruimh

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Read this - and have to wonder if I agree with those who say yes?


I don't think with the increased visibility given by the internet there could ever be anything as concerted and widespread allowed to continue - be it attacking religions or Races.
But I do worry that there could be extensive racial and religious violence and wars.
 

Outlander

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Feb 15, 2019
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Read this - and have to wonder if I agree with those who say yes?


I don't think with the increased visibility given by the internet there could ever be anything as concerted and widespread allowed to continue - be it attacking religions or Races.
But I do worry that there could be extensive racial and religious violence and wars.

StateDatesNumbers KilledCircumstances
China1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-5049-78,000,000purges, Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution
USSR1932-3923,000,000the purges plus Ukraine's famine
Germany1939-194512,000,000concentration camps and civilians WWII
Congo1886-19088,000,000imperialism
Japan1941-445,000,000civilians in WWII
Turkey1915-201,200,000 Armenians,1915
350,000 Greek Pontians, 1915
480,000 Anatolian Greeks, 1916-22
500,000 Assyrians, 1915-20
ethnic cleansing
Cambodia1975-791,700,000purges and concentration camps
North Korea1948-941,600,000purges and concentration camps
Ethiopia1975-781,500,000purges
Biafra1967-19701,000,000ethnic cleansing
Afghanistan1979-1982900,000purges and rebellion
Rwanda1994800,000ethnic cleansing
IraqIran 1980-1990 and Kurdistan 1987-88600,000war and ethnic cleansing
Yugoslavia1945-1987570,000ethnic cleansing
Indonesia1965-66500,000purges
Japan1937-39500,000genocide of Chinese civilians
Angola1975-2002400,000civil war
Afghanistan1986-2001400,000civil war
Uganda1969-1979300,000civil war
Pakistan1970-71300,000Bangladesh
Italy1934-45Ethiopia, 1936
Libya, 1934-45 300,000
Yugoslavia
imperialism
 

Jaysus

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Sep 6, 2021
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All you need to do is look at the next World Cup, or rather, don’t.

I’m a big fan of soccer in general, but especially like the big tournaments like the World Cup and the Euros. I’ve made the decision not to watch this next one.

The treatment of the workers who are building stadiums and other venues has been widely reported, with numerous leaked videos firsthand accounts. They’ve been called out by Amnesty International and the UN’s human rights watchdogs, yet the abuses continue unabated.

I’m reluctant to draw a comparison to the plight of these workers and the holocaust, but it goes to show that the world can, and will turn a blind eye to certain unpleasantries.

My personal boycott of the tournament will make fuck all difference to the Qataris or FIFA in the grand scheme of things, but it’s the only real and tangible thing that I can personally do.

I could go on about the Uighurs in China, or the Palestinians in Gaza, or the cleansing that’s happening in Afghanistan, but the World Cup will be watched and celebrated by the literal world.

Edit:

Read more:

That article drew some attention from “The Supreme Committee”:
 
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Nov 27, 2018
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There is an extremely high chance that mass murder / mass extermination will happen again. After all, it's not as if it only happened the once in human history. It happened again and again and again.

Although, it is more likely to happen as active neglect. People will be left to die. If the predictions about climate change come to pass, then I think we'll be seeing a lot of this.
 

Cruimh

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There is an extremely high chance that mass murder / mass extermination will happen again. After all, it's not as if it only happened the once in human history. It happened again and again and again.

Although, it is more likely to happen as active neglect. People will be left to die. If the predictions about climate change come to pass, then I think we'll be seeing a lot of this.
I think what set the holocaust apart was the extent - it involved something like 26 countries.
 
Nov 27, 2018
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I think what set the holocaust apart was the extent - it involved something like 26 countries.
Yes and no. If you think of the holocaust occurring primarily in German-controlled territory, the Russian and Chinese purges were on a similiar or even larger scale or extent.

Which is not to play down the horror of the holocaust in any way.
 
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Shaadi

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Feb 16, 2019
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Of course it could happen again. If you looked at German Society in the decades before the rise of Hitler you would think that it was a far too sophisticated society to allow for such a breakdown in morality.

Look at the recent coup attempt in the US, many in the Republican Party seemed to be ready to accept that Trump and his mob could storm the Capitol and string up Pelosi and any "traitors" they found.

24-27 million Russians died in WW II. When do you hear anything about that in the media, instead you hear demonisation of almost every move the Russians make.

100% it could happen again, particularly since World politics took a sharp turn to the Right in the 90s and has shown no appetite to swing back to the centre since.
 
Nov 27, 2018
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As a slightly softer example of how easily such things can happen, and how much of a fiction our "culture of empathy" is, all developed nations have ignored the WHO's calls for not implementing booster shots until the poorer developing nations of the world have a chance to to vaccinate even a sizeable minority of the populations.

Ultimately, we (the richer countries) don't give a damn about other people getting even a single shot of vaccine. We want our third shots now, and to hell with everyone else. "Let them die, as they're not us." It's worth noting that classic left/right wing politics are irrelevant. Conservative and liberal are pretty much united on hoarding vaccines and being first in the queue.
 

Cruimh

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Of course it could happen again. If you looked at German Society in the decades before the rise of Hitler you would think that it was a far too sophisticated society to allow for such a breakdown in morality.

Look at the recent coup attempt in the US, many in the Republican Party seemed to be ready to accept that Trump and his mob could storm the Capitol and string up Pelosi and any "traitors" they found.

24-27 million Russians died in WW II. When do you hear anything about that in the media, instead you hear demonisation of almost every move the Russians make.

100% it could happen again, particularly since World politics took a sharp turn to the Right in the 90s and has shown no appetite to swing back to the centre since.
I don’t see any country taking over numbers of other countries in the future - in the 21st century especially since the arrival of the Nuclear option. I do think that there will be horrendous domestic occurrences where there could and will be hundreds of thousands of victims. And international politics may fail those people because of issues to do with reluctance to interfere in internal politics or political alliances. North Korea springs to mind. It was very difficult as I recall to get consensus on acting during the horrors of the break up of Yugoslavia.
 
The destruction of the Holocaust and WW2 didn't really deter the tensions of the Cold War which started straight after WW2 and risked an international nuclear Holocaust. There will always be the threat of evil leaders. Although people nowadays can learn from history and be far more aware of the signs of imminent attack like the propaganda and stigmatisation levelled against the Jews by the nazis.
https://debatepolitics.com/threads/minority-rights.353082/
 
Sep 15, 2021
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78

StateDatesNumbers KilledCircumstances
China1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-5049-78,000,000purges, Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution
USSR1932-3923,000,000the purges plus Ukraine's famine
Germany1939-194512,000,000concentration camps and civilians WWII
Congo1886-19088,000,000imperialism
Japan1941-445,000,000civilians in WWII
Turkey1915-201,200,000 Armenians,1915
350,000 Greek Pontians, 1915
480,000 Anatolian Greeks, 1916-22
500,000 Assyrians, 1915-20
ethnic cleansing
Cambodia1975-791,700,000purges and concentration camps
North Korea1948-941,600,000purges and concentration camps
Ethiopia1975-781,500,000purges
Biafra1967-19701,000,000ethnic cleansing
Afghanistan1979-1982900,000purges and rebellion
Rwanda1994800,000ethnic cleansing
IraqIran 1980-1990 and Kurdistan 1987-88600,000war and ethnic cleansing
Yugoslavia1945-1987570,000ethnic cleansing
Indonesia1965-66500,000purges
Japan1937-39500,000genocide of Chinese civilians
Angola1975-2002400,000civil war
Afghanistan1986-2001400,000civil war
Uganda1969-1979300,000civil war
Pakistan1970-71300,000Bangladesh
Italy1934-45Ethiopia, 1936
Libya, 1934-45 300,000
Yugoslavia
imperialism
"Bangs head"- The USSR and China under Mao are COMPLETELY different phenomena to the Holocaust perpetrated under Hitler. Someone up thread mentioned the political swing Rightward that happened from the 90s onwards. I think that's correct but there has also been a major rightward revisionist swing in terms of how History is taught and who gets to teach it. The fact that Stalin and Mao are routinely lumped in with Hitler is an example of this complete right wing ignorance of history. I'd have to hand it to the rightwing brainwashers. While they whip up storms about people teaching gender studies, they have successfully colonised the historians and have MUCH more influence on pushing right leaning ideology than some gender studies professor has ever had in terms of pushing a progressive or liberal agenda. It's a shame that so many intelligent people swallow it so easily though.
 
Nov 27, 2018
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"Bangs head"- The USSR and China under Mao are COMPLETELY different phenomena to the Holocaust perpetrated under Hitler. Someone up thread mentioned the political swing Rightward that happened from the 90s onwards. I think that's correct but there has also been a major rightward revisionist swing in terms of how History is taught and who gets to teach it. The fact that Stalin and Mao are routinely lumped in with Hitler is an example of this complete right wing ignorance of history. I'd have to hand it to the rightwing brainwashers. While they whip up storms about people teaching gender studies, they have successfully colonised the historians and have MUCH more influence on pushing right leaning ideology than some gender studies professor has ever had in terms of pushing a progressive or liberal agenda. It's a shame that so many intelligent people swallow it so easily though.
Given that Stalin, Mao and Hitler all presided over regimes that killed a massive amount of people, why do you think they shouldn't be "lumped in together" as mass murderers?
 

ast

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Dec 15, 2018
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I was writting up on the topic at hand respective to China when the previous posts came, and will happily give way on that.

Another item is 19th century warfare in China. It is a topic that usually begets little attention, my recollections about reading up on one war in western China specifically are quite gruesome.

There are many things in China that have changed since then, and thankfully contemporary Chinese military thinking seems to be one of these. But even as a rabid sinophile i do keep an attentive eye on the matter when i can.
 

Cruimh

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Given that Stalin, Mao and Hitler all presided over regimes that killed a massive amount of people, why do you think they shouldn't be "lumped in together" as mass murderers?
those were all in the past. Most of Mao victims were domestic, many of Stalin victims were domestic whereas most of Hitler victims were not domestic. in the future I don’t see any country being able to annex or absorb multiple other countries in the way Hitler and Stalin did

China and Russia still have huge populations compared to most other countries - Indian sub continent also has a population which would enable a tyrant to commit mass murder on such a scale in a domestic context
 

publicrealm

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Nov 27, 2018
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Read this - and have to wonder if I agree with those who say yes?


I don't think with the increased visibility given by the internet there could ever be anything as concerted and widespread allowed to continue - be it attacking religions or Races.
But I do worry that there could be extensive racial and religious violence and wars.
I believe something like the Holocaust could happen again. As we write, there are atrocities being carried out all over the world, either by direct action or by omission, albeit not on the utterly appalling scale of the Holocaust.

We in the west are perhaps less directly concerned by these, as they occur in distant lands, and may assume it couldn't happen here? But it could, imo, quite easily. Bosnia was only yesterday, relatively (again, no comparison with the Holocaust).

While the www may shine a light on such matters, it also facilitates the nutters and their followers. Somebody already mentioned the 'othering' of the undercaste/untermensch so rife on the web and in the diseased politics of the extreme right.

We have a duty to ensure that the younger generation know their history - and that the most advanced and civilised nation on earth so recently gave rise to the Holocaust.

Never again - we must be alert.
 
Nov 27, 2018
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those were all in the past. Most of Mao victims were domestic, many of Stalin victims were domestic whereas most of Hitler victims were not domestic. in the future I don’t see any country being able to annex or absorb multiple other countries in the way Hitler and Stalin did

China and Russia still have huge populations compared to most other countries - Indian sub continent also has a population which would enable a tyrant to commit mass murder on such a scale in a domestic context
It's a fair enough point, but personally I wouldn’t feel that the distinction between domestic genocide / mass murder and genocide / mass murder of “foreigners” is a particularly distinction. The scale of atrocity is the truly devastating thing.

I am not being flippant, but the horror of the holocaust is nothing whatsoever to do with the inherent “Jewishness” of the Jewish people which the Nazis attempted to wipe out in their entirety - the fact that any group or groups of people, irrespective of any aspect of their identity, could be wiped out in such numbers in such a systematic way is truly staggering. And this was also why, when we’re talking about mass murdering regimes, there’s really no justification for saying “they’re not all the same”, as the result fundamentally is the same.

Ultimately, the Holocaust did not happen because the Jewish people were Jewish, it happened because the Nazis were Nazis.
 
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Cruimh

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It a fair enough point, but personally I rather n’t feel that the distinction between domestic genocide / mass murder and genocide / mass murder of “foreigners” is a clear distinction. The scale of atrocity is the truly devastating thing.

I am not being flippant, but the horror of the holocaust is nothing whatsoever to do with the inherent “Jewishness” of the Jewish people which the Nazis attempted to wipe out in their entirety - the fact that any group or groups of people, irrespective of any aspect of their identity, could be wiped out in such numbers in such as systematic way is truly staggering. And this was s also why, when we’re talking about mass murdering regimes, there’s really no justification for saying “they’re not all the same”, as the result fundamentally is the same.

Ultimately, the Holocaust did not happen because the Jewish people were Jewish, it happened because the Nazis were Nazis.
Well, a couple of points to clarify -

First- of course I agree that a massive slaughter of say 6 million in a domestic setting is just as awful as a slaughter of 6 million across 26 countries. I'm just saying that the latter sort of slaughter is unlikely to happen again - that sort of expansion across numerous borders isn't likely in the Nuclear age especially with electronic surveillance - and in domestic slaughter other countries unfortunately tend to say that it is an Internal matter , we shouldn't interfere beyond protesting. Thinking of how North Korea is still being handled.

Secondly I agree about the Nazis bearing the primary responsibility for The Holocaust. But it wouldn't have happened to the same extent without anti-Semitism having been fairly Universal. The Occupied countries don't come out well on closer examination - and I'm not just talking about the Hiwis and collaborators.

And it does worry me that as well as anti-Semitism still lurking, there is broad brush hostility being encouraged against Muslims and against people of Colour. Some other group may be scapegoated.

Something else to add - people won't believe in really awful things - either because it is hard to accept or because it is just too unpleasant to think about. We see the latter especially in respect of famines. And it doesn't help if the person blowing the whistle is to be ignored because he or she is otherwise unacceptable. It is sad to think that in the 1930s Hitler cracked the whip and kept the Catholic Church in Line with Morality trials when Hundreds of Priests and Brothers were arrested for child abuse. Or more recently - who could credit David Icke's exposure of Savile as a monster?
 
Sep 15, 2021
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Given that Stalin, Mao and Hitler all presided over regimes that killed a massive amount of people, why do you think they shouldn't be "lumped in together" as mass murderers?
Because they were results of very different circumstances. If we followed the thinking advocated by yourself we'd have to include ALL mass deaths caused by any group anywhere at any time as being essentially the same thing. The mass deaths and starvation caused by Stalin and mao's pilcies were results of intensive drives towards modernisation. They were much more akin to the global famines overseen by the British in the nineteenth century- including in China- which are right up there with numbers of deaths caused by regimes in the twentieth century. In fact, you could argue that the British crown and governments of the nineteenth century set the template that Stalin and Mao felt forced to pursue in order to get their countries onto a competitive footing with the industrialised world. If the British hadn't globalised commerce and industry in the nineteenth century, other large states wouldn't have had the need to do so in the twentieth. Which, following on from the sort of ahistorical thinking advocated by many right wingers and conservatives-basically makes Boris Johnson and all conservative politicians and royalists worse than Nazi apologists. Actually, the deaths caused under the British were 'market led' which makes anyone who advocates free market capitalism as worse than Hitler and as bad as Stalin and Mao - possibly worse than either.
 
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