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Irelands ( major ) Climate Action Plan 2021

Robutnua

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Nov 28, 2018
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Here is a link to LIVE launch of the Climate Action Plan:




The plans include,

In power generation:
  • Phasing out coal and peat in electricity generation
  • Retrofitting 500,000 homes by 2030
  • Install 680,000 household renewable heat sources, including the likes of heat pumps
In transport:
  • 500k extra daily trips on public/active transport
  • 945k EVs on road by 2030 (inc 845k cars)
  • All public buses to be EVs by 2035
  • Tripling the length of electrified rail network
  • Increased biofuel % of petrol/diesel
  • Cut length of engine journeys by 10%
In recycling:
  • Separate bins for biowaste and textiles
  • Recycle 65% of municipal waste by 2035, 70% of packaging waste by 2030, and 55% of plastic packaging waste by 2030
  • Make all plastic packaging recyclable by 2030
  • 90% of plastic drinks containers collected by 2029
In agriculture and land use:
  • Improved animal breeding and feeding
  • Straw to become 10% of tillage area
  • "Rehabilitate" 65,000 hectares of bogland
  • Increase annual afforestation
 
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Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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Where are they going to get people with the neccessary skills to retrofit the homes and install the heat pumps .....?

This sounds like more of Eamonn Ryans pie in the sky stuff the last time he was in government about creating 100k jobs doing this ......

Also heat pumps are more invasive to retrofit than a regular heating system or at least the ones i have fitted have plactic ductwork along with the regular pipework but is doable in a new build as it can be concealed in a false ceiling..........they are also many times more expensive that a regular gas or oil boiler and from what i'm hearing can be unreliable and hard to source spare parts for.........

I'm not arguing against we have to do something but we have to be realistic about costs and other issues .....The last time i watched a programme on this on RTE 1 they were talking about green mortgages to finance these sort of measures and the example they gave was over €70k for the full kit and caboodle...........

Anyoner else happy to put that sort of debt around their neck in the current climate...?
 

ted08

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Jan 7, 2019
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Power generation and phasing out of coal and peat, practically already there. Rated as in the bag.

Open fire places are already gone in new homes, and heat pumps etc in time will be the main heat source. Rated as doable.

Electric cars replacing existing ones at the numbers proposed, is pie in the sky stuff. Rated fantasy.

Recycling targets etc, well on the way. Rated as a likely target to be met.

Agriculture and land use. A complete cop out on the biggest source of emissions. Rated as doable.
 

Robutnua

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Nov 28, 2018
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@Franzoni I was LITERALLY about to ask you about the whole retrofit and heat pump thing. With respect to the latter I have heard too many people saying they have them and they are a disaster both in terms of heat not being enough and faults over time and very costly to maintain especially if replacement needed.

Also ( listening to LBC on this few weeks back ) Heat Pumps come in two versions. Air Heat pumps and ones which extract heat from underground. The latter is the best apparently but price is way way more to install. The Air Heat pumps are cheaper BUT once the temp goes below -10 they are useless

And yes a retrofit is 10s of 1000s apparently .. along with your 50k+ electric car in the drive

I realise as you we need to be doing things BUT this just feels to much like the EVERYONE SHOULD BUY DIESEL disaster again, sorry for the cynicism.

And you touched on one bit there re retrofitting heat pump systems. Does this mean your existing Gas / Electric piping system is of no use and a whole new duct system needs to be retrofitted into a house already built?
 
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Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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@Franzoni I was LITERALLY about to ask you about the whole retrofit and heat pump thing. With respect to the latter I have heard too many people saying they have them and they are a disaster both in terms of heat not being enough and faults over time and very costly to maintain especially if replacement needed.

Also ( listening to LBC on this few weeks back ) Heat Pumps come in two versions. Air Heat pumps and ones which extract heat from underground. The latter is the best apparently but price is way way more to install. The Air Heat pumps are cheaper BUT once the temp goes below -10 they are useless

And yes a retrofit is 10s of 1000s apparently .. along with your 50k+ electric car in the drive

I realise as you we need to be doing things BUT this just feels to much like the EVERYONE SHOULD BUY DIESEL disaster again, sorry for the cynicism.

And you touched on one bit there re retrofitting heat pump systems. Does this mean your existing Gas / Electric piping system is of no use and a whole new duct system needs to be retrofitted into a house already built?

The ones i fitted in new apartments had radiators like a regular heating system along with reusuing the heated air with supply air ducting...

If it's the same type of system to be installed in a 40 year old three bed semi it would be very invasive IMO unless putting up false ceilings or boxing it in somehow.....the current system would have to be inspected to see if the rads and pipework could be reused but i've seen some houses that were built in the 70's that have GB ( steel ) pipework like with use in industrial situations that i couldn't see being acceptable so you would be looking at a strip out and full refit.....

Also one of the lads had worked previously on the same system on a different job and said there were a lot of problems after people moved in and the systems were in use.....he told me they have to get brand new heat pumps and strip them for parts and the heat pumps were €6000 a pop.....make of that what you will.......

One of the major obstacles i see is getting sufficent skillled workers that can install these systems and still expect the housing crisis and infrastructure to be built.........
 

Robutnua

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Nov 28, 2018
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@Franzoni Just heard RYAN pretty much saying green mortgages is the way we will pay for our EVs and Retrofitting ... More DEBT and another Mortgage for those of us lucky enough to have finally payed off the last one OR more mortgage debt piled on top of those paying a large mortgage already
 

Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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@Franzoni Just heard RYAN pretty much saying green mortgages is the way we will pay for our EVs and Retrofitting ... More DEBT and another Mortgage for those of us lucky enough to have finally payed off the last one OR more mortgage debt piled on top of those paying a large mortgage already

56% of people on CBL on Monday night sid they won't do it unless the state funding is increased to offset the cost.....
 

Robutnua

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56% of people on CBL on Monday night sid they won't do it unless the state funding is increased to offset the cost.....
TBH we are lucky to have paid off our mortgage and own the house. We were not anticipating to have to pretty much start all over again with more large debt which would take us well into older age & paying via pension. Tween EV and retrofit most of us will be looking at north of €80k+ ????
 

Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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TBH we are lucky to have paid off our mortgage and own the house. We were not anticipating to have to pretty much start all over again with more large debt which would take us well into older age & paying via pension. Tween EV and retrofit most of us will be looking at north of €80k+ ????

Not much point in doing the heat pump and not doing the windows and isulating the house so yeah i could see a big bill at the end...like i said RTE ran a few programmes about this a while back and IIRC the bill was north of €70k......

I won't be remortgaging and putting that anchor around my Gregory Peck unless Ryan and the rest put their hands into their pockets and significantly up the amount of €€€ in the grants available .......

What happens if you're at an age and find you need the fair deal scheme and you have a green mortgage on the house...? .....has anyone in the media asked Ryan that question....?
 

milipod

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Nov 27, 2018
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Not much point in doing the heat pump and not doing the windows and isulating the house so yeah i could see a big bill at the end...like i said RTE ran a few programmes about this a while back and IIRC the bill was north of €70k......

I won't be remortgaging and putting that anchor around my Gregory Peck unless Ryan and the rest put their hands into their pockets and significantly up the amount of €€€ in the grants available .......

What happens if you're at an age and find you need the fair deal scheme and you have a green mortgage on the house...? .....has anyone in the media asked Ryan that question....?
He was asleep.
 

publicrealm

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Nov 27, 2018
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@Franzoni I was LITERALLY about to ask you about the whole retrofit and heat pump thing. With respect to the latter I have heard too many people saying they have them and they are a disaster both in terms of heat not being enough and faults over time and very costly to maintain especially if replacement needed.

Also ( listening to LBC on this few weeks back ) Heat Pumps come in two versions. Air Heat pumps and ones which extract heat from underground. The latter is the best apparently but price is way way more to install. The Air Heat pumps are cheaper BUT once the temp goes below -10 they are useless

And yes a retrofit is 10s of 1000s apparently .. along with your 50k+ electric car in the drive

I realise as you we need to be doing things BUT this just feels to much like the EVERYONE SHOULD BUY DIESEL disaster again, sorry for the cynicism.

And you touched on one bit there re retrofitting heat pump systems. Does this mean your existing Gas / Electric piping system is of no use and a whole new duct system needs to be retrofitted into a house already built?
I don't buy the electric car thing.

I have a diesel car that has returned 4.9l per 100km over the 60,000 km (+) that I have owned it. That's 57.6 mpg - over its life sofar.

I'm not about to change.
 

Robutnua

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Nov 28, 2018
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An acquaintance recently paid his annual service on solar panel and heat exchange tubes ( glycinol is used in these I think & service needs to happen, if not house could flood with ) - €860pa ..
 
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Robutnua

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Nov 28, 2018
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I don't buy the electric car thing.

I have a diesel car that has returned 4.9l per 100km over the 60,000 km (+) that I have owned it. That's 57.6 mpg - over its life sofar.

I'm not about to change.
As it stands ( and just off phone to a mechanic friend of mine discussing this who is also very much into green and enviro ) .. a petrol car both efficiency and also carbon footprint wise is far more efficient than Diesel apparently. After the cat in a petrol car you basically have water coming out the exhaust. A diesel is far far more dirty ( what comes out of exhaust ).

The carbon footprint of an EV is huge relative based on the mining and shipping of the Lithium plus the metals used in the battery terminals etc. Something like 10 years of driving before carbon efficient so to speak if we are to be truthful to ourselves and factor in thses things and not just the minute we start driving the EV

Also read this .. another big factor:



And a Q .. would you get on a ferry packed full with EVs? One of those explodes, catches fire .. that ferry is a potential bomb.

Main point being we seem to be sort of in a way kidding ourselves .. govs etc
 

Shaadi

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Feb 16, 2019
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In fairness to the Greens this is what they went into power for. For them the need for action is more important than whether you can pay your bills or not. Anyone who voted for the Greens really shouldn't be complaining about what they are doing ( did ye think they were going in there to instill probity into Govt? ).


On items such as Heat Pumps, they are evolving all the time and there should be big improvements in their cost and reliability as they become mass produced in staggering numbers.


Now this Govt may promise whatever they want, but any following Govt can rip up most of it and start again. These targets will really only be met if the electorate accept them politically.
 

hollandia

Literally knows shit
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In fairness to the Greens this is what they went into power for. For them the need for action is more important than whether you can pay your bills or not. Anyone who voted for the Greens really shouldn't be complaining about what they are doing ( did ye think they were going in there to instill probity into Govt? ).


On items such as Heat Pumps, they are evolving all the time and there should be big improvements in their cost and reliability as they become mass produced in staggering numbers.


Now this Govt may promise whatever they want, but any following Govt can rip up most of it and start again. These targets will really only be met if the electorate accept them politically.
To be fair, expecting people to retrofit at exorbitant prices at the same time as slapping levies on carbon fuels whilst they're at an all time high prices, and - as an aside - looking to levy things like Netflix, Disney+ and Amazon Prime whilst enormous numbers of people are stuck at home with nothing to watch except Daithí of an afternoon smacks of contempt for your electorate.

In fact, the proposed levy on streaming services could do far more damage politically than anything else.

That said, the MO of this Government (and FG in particular) is to "encourage" the electorate to move a certain way by making things prohibitively expensive, rather than incentivising the alternative. They'll learn eventually.
 

Bonkers

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Feb 15, 2019
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@Franzoni Just heard RYAN pretty much saying green mortgages is the way we will pay for our EVs and Retrofitting ... More DEBT and another Mortgage for those of us lucky enough to have finally payed off the last one OR more mortgage debt piled on top of those paying a large mortgage already
Ryan is away with the fairies. The people who voted for him should be ashamed of themselves.
 

T. Leaf

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Nov 28, 2018
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@Franzoni Just heard RYAN pretty much saying green mortgages is the way we will pay for our EVs and Retrofitting ... More DEBT and another Mortgage for those of us lucky enough to have finally payed off the last one OR more mortgage debt piled on top of those paying a large mortgage already
Ryan is talking through his back passage. But what else is new with the Wolf Man? The Lord protect Ireland from the likes of him.
 

T. Leaf

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Nov 28, 2018
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In fairness to the Greens this is what they went into power for. For them the need for action is more important than whether you can pay your bills or not. Anyone who voted for the Greens really shouldn't be complaining about what they are doing ( did ye think they were going in there to instill probity into Govt? ).


On items such as Heat Pumps, they are evolving all the time and there should be big improvements in their cost and reliability as they become mass produced in staggering numbers.


Now this Govt may promise whatever they want, but any following Govt can rip up most of it and start again. These targets will really only be met if the electorate accept them politically.
All very well and good. But what if you didn't vote for the Greens because you knew the kind of sociopaths they were? Where is your protection from them in this case? I will say that I exclude Lorna Bogue from the above because she is on record as telling her fellow greens that they must take into consideration the effect their policies might have on some poorer people.
 

Bonkers

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Feb 15, 2019
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All very well and good. But what if you didn't vote for the Greens because you knew the kind of sociopaths they were? Where is your protection from them in this case? I will say that I exclude Lorna Bogue from the above because she is on record as telling her fellow greens that they must take into consideration the effect their policies might have on some poorer people.
Ryan doesn’t think or care about poorer people.
 

Shaadi

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Feb 16, 2019
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All very well and good. But what if you didn't vote for the Greens because you knew the kind of sociopaths they were? Where is your protection from them in this case? I will say that I exclude Lorna Bogue from the above because she is on record as telling her fellow greens that they must take into consideration the effect their policies might have on some poorer people.
We will have to rely on FF and FG to temper the Greens' sociopathic tendencies ( we're all fecked so 🤣)
 

Robutnua

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Nov 28, 2018
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RTÉ Radio's Philip Boucher-Hayes, just back from COP26, joins host Sandra Hurley and correspondent Paul Cunningham, to grapple with the details of the plan, and some of the massive issues it raises.

 

Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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Does he really think most people have that sort of money?
.


Well we know Varadker thinks we all have 30k to give every one of our children to get them on the property ladder ( the bank of Mam and Dad ) after helping them through college and paying for the 'free' schooling before that....

Like i said previously i'm not against this in prinicple you would have to be living under a rock and have a brain the size of a pea to not realise we have to do somethimg .....

I'm questioning all this private finance they want to put in hock to and installing expensive systems and electric cars etc.... that haven't had all their faults ironed out .....
 

Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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In fairness to the Greens this is what they went into power for. For them the need for action is more important than whether you can pay your bills or not. Anyone who voted for the Greens really shouldn't be complaining about what they are doing ( did ye think they were going in there to instill probity into Govt? ).


On items such as Heat Pumps, they are evolving all the time and there should be big improvements in their cost and reliability as they become mass produced in staggering numbers.


Now this Govt may promise whatever they want, but any following Govt can rip up most of it and start again. These targets will really only be met if the electorate accept them politically.

Why do i get the feeling the when it comes to mass production we are talking about a country with a very dodgy human/workers rights record for their factories and is one of the biggest polluters on the planet and i wouldn't be 100% that anything they mass produce will be reliable .....the 14 million we gave them for ventilators mioght as well been put on a runner in the 3.30 at Chepstow.....

If i'm not mistaken the government were able to do a 50/50 cashback with homeowners in the 1980's to go from using open fires to gas boilers to reduce smog and air pollution without putting homeowners on the hock to big finance...........
 

Bonkers

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Feb 15, 2019
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Well we know Varadker thinks we all have 30k to give every one of our children to get them on the property ladder ( the bank of Mam and Dad ) after helping them through college and paying for the 'free' schooling before that....

Like i said previously i'm not against this in prinicple you would have to be living under a rock and have a brain the size of a pea to not realise we have to do somethimg .....

I'm questioning all this private finance they want to put in hock to and installing expensive systems and electric cars etc.... that haven't had all their faults ironed out .....
It needs to be realistic and affordable for most people to go along with it. Seemingly solar panels for an average 3 bed house are €15000 to €20000. Maintenance is over 800 I saw someone post.
 

Robutnua

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Nov 28, 2018
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It needs to be realistic and affordable for most people to go along with it. Seemingly solar panels for an average 3 bed house are €15000 to €20000. Maintenance is over 800 I saw someone post.
Yip, about €860+ per annum as per acquaintance .. I assume more if you have more
 

seanof

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Nov 27, 2018
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Every one of them in the Dail running away when the amount of cows and methane is mentioned .....
Correct and McConologue, Minister for Agriculture, point blank refuses to answer questions about the failure of his dept over many years, to grant licences for planting or cutting of trees. And he gets away with it. So much for afforestation, whch might be an alternative for some farmers.

They'd sicken you with their hypocrisy!
 

Bonkers

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Feb 15, 2019
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Correct and McConologue, Minister for Agriculture, point blank refuses to answer questions about the failure of his dept over many years, to grant licences for planting or cutting of trees. And he gets away with it. So much for afforestation, whch might be an alternative for some farmers.

They'd sicken you with their hypocrisy!
Don’t they want to privatise some of the forests?
 

seanof

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Nov 27, 2018
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Don’t they want to privatise some of the forests?
Not that I'm aware of but maybe. The critical problem now is that private foresters, mainly farmers, who invested in forestry maybe 30 years ago can't get licences to harvest the crop and replant. Many who want to establish new plantations can't get permission to plant.

 

Bonkers

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Feb 15, 2019
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Not that I'm aware of but maybe. The critical problem now is that private foresters, mainly farmers, who invested in forestry maybe 30 years ago can't get licences to harvest the crop and replant. Many who want to establish new plantations can't get permission to plant.

That’s bonkers.
 

CarlDoyle

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Feb 10, 2021
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Not that I'm aware of but maybe. The critical problem now is that private foresters, mainly farmers, who invested in forestry maybe 30 years ago can't get licences to harvest the crop and replant. Many who want to establish new plantations can't get permission to plant.
The irony is that by refusing to facilitate harvesting, they are eliminating the incentive to plant more trees.

No farmer would plant crops if they weren't allowed harvest them at the end of the year. The same applies to trees, but the risk is higher. Who knows what government policy will be after 30 years.
 

Cruimh

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Under the blue skies
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Farmers upset at the Common Agriculture plan and Climate Action Plan :

Irish agricultural minister says Ireland's farming is sustainable because it is mainly pasture – rather missing the point that meat based diet is a lot less green than plant based diets. Carrots and spuds don't release methane - cattle and sheep do

“The objective here is to reduce emissions, not to reduce the food we produce,” the Donegal TD told Newstalk.
“We’re very fortunate in terms of the fact that the agriculture model we have nationally is one of the most sustainable food-producing systems in the world, being grass-based, pasture-based.”
He also predicted that farming would emerge stronger through the next decade.

Not forgetting that a lot of the best crop producing land is now under housing estates and bungalows etc
 
Apr 24, 2020
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@Franzoni Just heard RYAN pretty much saying green mortgages is the way we will pay for our EVs and Retrofitting ... More DEBT and another Mortgage for those of us lucky enough to have finally payed off the last one OR more mortgage debt piled on top of those paying a large mortgage already
This is nuts. Car upgrades will follow the normal buying cycle for consumers. With the normal expenditure tolerance, (vis a vis new or second hand).

A mortgage to upgrade your house? Nuts. Maybe a short loan for a few years, but the payback needs to make this possible. Few will "take one for the team" here. Nor should they.

And the plan is tone deaf on affordability.

Due to a lack of imagination. (Follow on post to follow).
 
Apr 24, 2020
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(Follow on, posted on P.ie also).

Affordability is the issue. Real risk of cruelty to poorer and rural people, with no real effect on Co2, and a missed opportunity to change behaviour amongst people who need a bigger stick.

So, is there a case for rationing CO2 at a personal/ household level? Via a slightly counterintuitive carbon refund process?

I'll try to be brief. Rich people consume disproportionately more than poor people. Rich people can buy an EV, retrofit their homes, and may live near public transport, unlike the rural poor or the antisocial hours retail worker.

When you tax carbon, poor guy freezes/starves/can't visit anyone. Rich person mentions the cost of filling the new hybrid SUV over dinner, whilst deciding if maybe only taking 2 holidays a year might be better for the planet, whilst still filling the wheelie bin with plastic every week.

Utter virtue signalling, and still a lifestyle of discretionary emissions well in excess of the guy chasing heat/food/ social interaction.

Solution. More carbon tax. But, like the discounted utilities pensioners get (the mothers electricity bill is sometimes a tenner for 2 months..) we issue everyone with a "carbon discount card". Which let's their fuel purchases (up to a set point) have the old carbon tax levels . This works on car fuel and coal/electricity/gas and wood purchased from fuel outlets.

This will be tiered based on location and household size.

Yes, this sounds like cash for Ash, but there is no incentive to buy more at a lower price. You need it anyway. And comparisons to water tax don't stack up, as this is a discount.

This is implementable. The civil liberties whingers may bitch, but they don't have to use it.
 
Apr 24, 2020
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Part of the above post flows from a minor epiphany I had last night. It was cold. (Outside), so we lit a cosy fire in an already warm house. Which was lovely, but I don't need to sit in a t-shirt in my house. That's excessive.

We upgraded our insulation, heating, installed solar, over the past few years. I have a hybrid car (not an SUV, I might add), and I live in Dublin. The fuel rises have cost ~ 40€ a month in the past few months, and gas and elec are more.

But it would be way worse with my old, non hybrid car (60 a month) and before we did the gaff upgrades.

The better off can really Insulate (literally) themselves from this. It is massively inequitable.
 

hollandia

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This is nuts. Car upgrades will follow the normal buying cycle for consumers. With the normal expenditure tolerance, (vis a vis new or second hand).

A mortgage to upgrade your house? Nuts. Maybe a short loan for a few years, but the payback needs to make this possible. Few will "take one for the team" here. Nor should they.

And the plan is tone deaf on affordability.

Due to a lack of imagination. (Follow on post to follow).
There was a largish split in the green party after they went into government and abandoned completely the idea of a just transition. The lefties have just formed "vegan Sinn féin" aka An Rabhartas Glas led by Lorna Bogue.
It's all very well saying green mortgages are the solution, but it's just as tone deaf as the "borrow from the bank of mum and dad for a deposit" idea from a year ago.
All this does is further highlight the disconnect between those who govern and those who are governed. And crucially, government is now disconnected entirely from the "squeezed middle."
We're fucked, basically.
 
Apr 24, 2020
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There was a largish split in the green party after they went into government and abandoned completely the idea of a just transition. The lefties have just formed "vegan Sinn féin" aka An Rabhartas Glas led by Lorna Bogue.
It's all very well saying green mortgages are the solution, but it's just as tone deaf as the "borrow from the bank of mum and dad for a deposit" idea from a year ago.
All this does is further highlight the disconnect between those who govern and those who are governed. And crucially, government is now disconnected entirely from the "squeezed middle."
We're fucked, basically.
It is tone deaf, and also reveals a mindset that is all about public "sackcloth and ashes" whilst ignoring affordability and achieving the goal of CO2 reduction.

Failure in this also provides insulation from failing to discuss the national herd, and will result in a yellow vest reaction.

Focusing on what habits can be changed is vital. And much of the billing infrastructure is there already with utility companies. Expanding this to a personalised CO2 budget is not difficult. Assigning that to people can be done in a manner that makes the existing inequality very apparent, and shows this as a way to mitigate this.

We do this in a piecemeal manner in so many areas, it merely requires some cohesive thinking to make personal and household Carbon emissions measurable.
 
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