• New Home.

    Hey all, just a little update.

    We have moved servers and as a result, we are now under a new URL and a new name, we are now Irishpolitics.net. Please change your bookmarks and update how you get to this site.

    Our new URL is

    www.irishpolitics.net

    The old URL will become obsolete over the coming week.

    We will also be upgrading the site software to the latest version but this will be done over the coming weeks, once everyone is comfortable with the new URL.

    Sorry for any inconvenience.

    Colm
  • Important Information regarding posting about Covid 19 Click Here

Murder, Drugs, Violence, Theft, Corporate Crime etc .. a thread

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
Horrific ...

'Every parent’s worst nightmare': Tributes paid to Cork student killed in stabbing as murder probe launched
A STUDENT WHO died after he was stabbed in the neck in Cork city has been named as Cameron Blair, a 20-year-old talented sportsman and second year engineering student at Cork Institute of Technology.

AND

17-year-old boy beheaded and dismembered as gang feud hits depraved new low

exactly:

AND


AND

Two men are shot in Dublin as Ireland's bloody gang wars escalate

ALL within the last two days. When is this downward spiral of vicious violence going to end? Who is going to end it?

It seems as we move forward the violence is getting more and more depraved
 
Last edited:

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
A year and a half ago or so a friend of mine was walking away from a pub in Cork city centre toward a cab company. From behind somebody gave him a severe blow to the neck and head. He woke up at a garage service station miles away and doesnt know how he got there.

Apparently for a while now this kind of serious assault has been seen as for fun. Walking anywhere at night now is a pure lottery
 

curio

Member
Feb 26, 2019
4,007
3,666
It seems as we move forward the violence is getting more and more depraved
If I remember rightly there was a huge uptick in gangland assassinations as the last recession started, less cash, fewer buyers, more middle handlers left owing too much to their suppliers and gang leaders fighting over dwindling demand.
 

snorlax

Member
Dec 11, 2019
2,026
1,948
If I remember rightly there was a huge uptick in gangland assassinations as the last recession started, less cash, fewer buyers, more middle handlers left owing too much to their suppliers and gang leaders fighting over dwindling demand.
I think a lot of centres of gangland violence are the result of being badly affected by cutbacks and austerity under FF and Fg governments since 2008. We are seeing the results of that now.
 

curio

Member
Feb 26, 2019
4,007
3,666
I think a lot of centres of gangland violence are the result of being badly affected by cutbacks and austerity under FF and Fg governments since 2008. We are seeing the results of that now.
And what the causes of the gangland killings before austerity became a fashionable catchall explanation?
 
Nov 27, 2018
4,975
6,744
And what the causes of the gangland killings before austerity became a fashionable catchall explanation?
This. Organised crime is incredibly resistant to economic up- and down turns. The products change but the MO doesn't.
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260

And this BTW is something that just does not feature enough in Media etc. ANYONE buying/using these drugs is part of the problem and funding all of this directly .. end of! .. amazing how weekend users can disassociate themselves from any blame whatsoever
 
Nov 27, 2018
4,975
6,744

And this BTW is something that just does not feature enough in Media etc. ANYONE buying/using these drugs is part of the problem and funding all of this directly .. end of! .. amazing how weekend users can disassociate themselves from any blame whatsoever
Decriminalisation/legalisation and regulation of recreational drugs is a question of "when", not "if", IMHO - but it will have to be an initiative at the EU level - national drug policies of EU member states has created a ridiculous situation: the czechs have completely decriminalised cannabis, for example, but Poland still officially has hefty fines and prison sentences for cannabis possession. But no border checks between the two countries.

Given the EU's four freedoms, national drugs policy cannot work.

People will not stop using recreational drugs. The only effective way to remove organised crime from the equation is through legitimising recreational use. Doing so will have negative effects, but it would be a less hypocritical and more manageable situation than the current one.
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
Decriminalisation/legalisation and regulation of recreational drugs is a question of "when", not "if", IMHO - but it will have to be an initiative at the EU level - national drug policies of EU member states has created a ridiculous situation: the czechs have completely decriminalised cannabis, for example, but Poland still officially has hefty fines and prison sentences for cannabis possession. But no border checks between the two countries.

Given the EU's four freedoms, national drugs policy cannot work.

People will not stop using recreational drugs. The only effective way to remove organised crime from the equation is through legitimising recreational use. Doing so will have negative effects, but it would be a less hypocritical and more manageable situation than the current one.
So how far do we go with decriminalising Recreational Drugs? Whats in that basket? Does it include Cocaine and Heroine? Because its the latter two that are riff across this country at the moment
 
Mar 1, 2019
1,745
1,578
So how far do we go with decriminalising Recreational Drugs? Whats in that basket? Does it include Cocaine and Heroine? Because its the latter two that are riff across this country at the moment
Heroin is not the problem it once was. The headline number of users is growing, because people who became addicted in the 80's and 90's are still addicted but largely stable. The number of 'new' addicts is falling. A narcotic demographic bulge.
 

Derryman

Member
Feb 17, 2019
6,300
7,141
Derry

And this BTW is something that just does not feature enough in Media etc. ANYONE buying/using these drugs is part of the problem and funding all of this directly .. end of! .. amazing how weekend users can disassociate themselves from any blame whatsoever
And, how many of those weekend users are writing column in the media,presenting programmes, patrolling the streets in uniform, sitting in places of government and legislating in regards to it's use?
 

Round tower

Member
Feb 16, 2019
2,579
960
On the RTE 6.1 news the mayor of Drougheda was interviewed, the presenter asked him about gaurda numbers and what could the legislaters do,. The mayor spoke od less gaurds and that and said that their could be more done by the legislaters but he never said what and the presenter never pressed him on it.
Mary Lou and Sinn Fein u turn on the non jury central criminal court must be welcomed. Up to thiis they wanted it to be abolished now they want it reviewed and if after the review it says it should be kept they will be happy to back it.
 
Nov 27, 2018
4,975
6,744
So how far do we go with decriminalising Recreational Drugs? Whats in that basket? Does it include Cocaine and Heroine? Because its the latter two that are riff across this country at the moment
That's a topic I've thought about for quite a few years, and my opinion ions have changed a lot:

firstly, a long time ago I would have pushed for decriminalisation, and decriminalisation is a far better option than prohibition. But now I think decriminalisation is a "fudge". It reduces user death and removes some of the leverage organised crime has, as while still illegal possession is not criminal, so there is less opportubity for coercion. But production supply will still be out of the hands of "legitimate" business, and organised crime will still fill that void. Decriminalisation also does not allow for direct taxation.

So now I'd advocate complete legalisation, so that every stage of the supply-chain is legitimate, and so can be effectively regulated, policies and taxed.

In the same way, I used to believe a divide could be made between soft and hard drugs with regards decriminalisation, but thus is something I don't think holds water.

Organised crime adapts. The Mafia, post-prohibition, moves into other areas. Decriminalisation of "soft drugs" would motivate gangs to promote the use and availability of "harder" drugs.

so, to cut out the criminal element as effectively as possible, all recreational drugs would need to not only be decriminalised, but be completely legalised.

Thaa as t said, I'm in no way advocating an "over the counter" policy. While I wasn't a fan of, say, the "cannabis club" / "cannabis user card" model in many IS states, it has its merits.

So, imagine that heroin and cocaine are completely legal. They can
nit only be sold legally by registered and regulated outlets, but they can also be produced legally, again under regulation and only by licensed producers.

Users would need a prescription to purchase, and this prescription would be based on 1) regular medical check-ups to screen out high risk cases 1) a system of registration where quantities and frequency of purchase is recorded.

Would the system be abused? Yes. Would certain doctors be very generous with their prescriptions? Yes. Would people buy and then resell to minors or those rejected from the system? Yes.

But heavy penalties to factors and unauthorised resellers, effective policing of the system and putting tax revenue of ashes into healthcare, rehabilitation and education on responsible recreational drug use would leave us in a far mire manageable situation than today's one.

Telling people not to have sex was never an effective way of reducing STDs and unwanted pregnancy. Education about safe sex and increasing the availability of contraception was and is more effective.

Netflix and Spotify have done far more to minimise piracy than any legal heavy-handedness.

Banning cigarettes wouldn't stop people smoking. Limiting social environments were people and smoke and "denormalising" smoking has been more effective.
 

snorlax

Member
Dec 11, 2019
2,026
1,948
And what the causes of the gangland killings before austerity became a fashionable catchall explanation?

Ok, name me a centre of gang violence that Isn't a deprived area. If you think that austerity has had nothing to do with the increase in gang crime, you're deluded.
 
Nov 27, 2018
4,975
6,744
2 wrongs does not make a right
It greatly reduced the number of drug-related deaths in Portugal. So I wouldn't call it "a wrong".

No offence, but supporting recreational drug prohibition is just NIMBYism. People will take drugs anyway. Not seeing it doesn't mean it's not happening, and in fact it makes it more dangerous for society, as it remains underground and outside of any regulation. Prohibition is just a way of keep one's head in the sand, and is a very irresponsible position to take.
 
Nov 27, 2018
4,975
6,744
That's why the centres for criminal activity are in places like Blackrock :rolleyes:
Follow the money. Where do you think all the proceeds end up?

Not in deprived areas.

Fsr more than one property in Blackrock has been bought with dirty money.
 

curio

Member
Feb 26, 2019
4,007
3,666
Ok, name me a centre of gang violence that Isn't a deprived area. If you think that austerity has had nothing to do with the increase in gang crime, you're deluded.
Is "Austerity" the new "Poverty'?

Are the farmers suffering Austerity or Poverty?
 

hollandia

Literally knows shit
Staff member
Moderator
Member
This is perhaps a little off topic, but the uptick in violence has been noted up north. Perhaps, too tongue in cheek, but perhaps because perceptions of the violent north are off the charts in some places in the Irish media, this struck a chord with me.


Interesting discussion around the subject with the Dublin Bay North candidates on de RTE earlier, and what struck me was that aside from FF and FG, almost all the candidates agreed that poverty, lack of investment, opportunities and education were real drivers, both in terms of addiction and involvement in supply (the latter also influenced by media and reportage glamorisation of "gangsters".)

Total change in approach needed.
 

Bill

Member
Mar 9, 2019
2,243
2,438
Livin' La Veda Lockdown

Seosamh

Member
Nov 29, 2018
10,422
7,164

Truthisfree

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,189
2,330
That's a topic I've thought about for quite a few years, and my opinion ions have changed a lot:

firstly, a long time ago I would have pushed for decriminalisation, and decriminalisation is a far better option than prohibition. But now I think decriminalisation is a "fudge". It reduces user death and removes some of the leverage organised crime has, as while still illegal possession is not criminal, so there is less opportubity for coercion. But production supply will still be out of the hands of "legitimate" business, and organised crime will still fill that void. Decriminalisation also does not allow for direct taxation.

So now I'd advocate complete legalisation, so that every stage of the supply-chain is legitimate, and so can be effectively regulated, policies and taxed.

In the same way, I used to believe a divide could be made between soft and hard drugs with regards decriminalisation, but thus is something I don't think holds water.

Organised crime adapts. The Mafia, post-prohibition, moves into other areas. Decriminalisation of "soft drugs" would motivate gangs to promote the use and availability of "harder" drugs.

so, to cut out the criminal element as effectively as possible, all recreational drugs would need to not only be decriminalised, but be completely legalised.

Thaa as t said, I'm in no way advocating an "over the counter" policy. While I wasn't a fan of, say, the "cannabis club" / "cannabis user card" model in many IS states, it has its merits.

So, imagine that heroin and cocaine are completely legal. They can
nit only be sold legally by registered and regulated outlets, but they can also be produced legally, again under regulation and only by licensed producers.

Users would need a prescription to purchase, and this prescription would be based on 1) regular medical check-ups to screen out high risk cases 1) a system of registration where quantities and frequency of purchase is recorded.

Would the system be abused? Yes. Would certain doctors be very generous with their prescriptions? Yes. Would people buy and then resell to minors or those rejected from the system? Yes.

But heavy penalties to factors and unauthorised resellers, effective policing of the system and putting tax revenue of ashes into healthcare, rehabilitation and education on responsible recreational drug use would leave us in a far mire manageable situation than today's one.

Telling people not to have sex was never an effective way of reducing STDs and unwanted pregnancy. Education about safe sex and increasing the availability of contraception was and is more effective.

Netflix and Spotify have done far more to minimise piracy than any legal heavy-handedness.

Banning cigarettes wouldn't stop people smoking. Limiting social environments were people and smoke and "denormalising" smoking has been more effective.
You make many good points there TKMB, I am not sure at all about Doctors having to give prescriptions for recreational drugs. Let's look at how things work today as regards legal recreational drugs.

I go to the supermarket and buy my alcohol, no restrictions on how much, just on age limit and concentration, fair enough, I also pick up a pack of coffee, chocolate and cigarettes...all while doing my weekly shop. What not the same for the rest? There is an alarmism about illegal drugs which does not extend to those like alcohol and cigarettes...not to mention prescription drugs.

I know it may sound bizarre to be able to buy Coke, Extacy etc in the supermarket but we have been buying two of the most dangerous drugs like that for a long time now, because they are socially acceptable drugs. Drug snobbishness? I don't think so, something else maybe...
 
Nov 27, 2018
4,975
6,744
You make many good points there TKMB, I am not sure at all about Doctors having to give prescriptions for recreational drugs. Let's look at how things work today as regards legal recreational drugs.

I go to the supermarket and buy my alcohol, no restrictions on how much, just on age limit and concentration, fair enough, I also pick up a pack of coffee, chocolate and cigarettes...all while doing my weekly shop. What not the same for the rest? There is an alarmism about illegal drugs which does not extend to those like alcohol and cigarettes...not to mention prescription drugs.

I know it may sound bizarre to be able to buy Coke, Extacy etc in the supermarket but we have been buying two of the most dangerous drugs like that for a long time now, because they are socially acceptable drugs. Drug snobbishness? I don't think so, something else maybe...
I get your point, but as I've gotten older I do think there should me registration to be able to access illegal drugs, and regular health monitoring of the use of those drugs. It would reduce the risks of drug-related deaths, as people at risk of complications, over-use and loss of function could be noted quickly, and the information gained could help in treatment.

As for registration, it seems draconian but it might make "casual users" think twice and it would also provide useful data in terms of quantity and frequency. The more reliable data, the better.

One of the things that has always been a problem with recreational drugs has been the stereotypes associated with who uses which drugs. I'd be happy to bet that the reality really doesn't match those stereotypes.
 

Truthisfree

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,189
2,330
I get your point, but as I've gotten older I do think there should me registration to be able to access illegal drugs, and regular health monitoring of the use of those drugs. It would reduce the risks of drug-related deaths, as people at risk of complications, over-use and loss of function could be noted quickly, and the information gained could help in treatment.

As for registration, it seems draconian but it might make "casual users" think twice and it would also provide useful data in terms of quantity and frequency. The more reliable data, the better.

One of the things that has always been a problem with recreational drugs has been the stereotypes associated with who uses which drugs. I'd be happy to bet that the reality really doesn't match those stereotypes.
Will 'casual users' think twice or just buy from the street as always? Prohibition of alcohol in the US was a very valuable lesson, the same applies to other drugs. Maybe 'Cafes' Amsterdam style would work.
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
Another one lads .. reported serious assault & shooting in blackpool, cork city

 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
Another one lads .. reported serious assault & shooting in blackpool, cork city

On FB:
The assault in Blackpool was 2 brothers assaulted with hammer and baseball bats. Possible fractured skull but they’re ok. Guards came on it and drew their guns but no shots. It’s really gone crazy in cork.
 

paddyc

Member
Mar 8, 2019
159
168
Will 'casual users' think twice or just buy from the street as always? Prohibition of alcohol in the US was a very valuable lesson, the same applies to other drugs. Maybe 'Cafes' Amsterdam style would work.
'Casual’ users or any other type of users will go the legal route because there’s no risk of arrest, confiscation, conviction, adulteration, mixing with violent criminals or any of the other issues surrounding the use of illegal drugs.

As twokidsmanybruises pointed out, there will still be an illicit drugs market but it would be a fraction of its current size.

If the government announced it was bringing in emergency legislation to bring this into effect and have cannabis, ecstasy, cocaine and heroin in the shops next week, can you imagine the effect on gangs sitting on stockpiles of this stuff watching their market evaporate before their eyes?
 

Truthisfree

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,189
2,330
'Casual’ users or any other type of users will go the legal route because there’s no risk of arrest, confiscation, conviction, adulteration, mixing with violent criminals or any of the other issues surrounding the use of illegal drugs.

As twokidsmanybruises pointed out, there will still be an illicit drugs market but it would be a fraction of its current size.

If the government announced it was bringing in emergency legislation to bring this into effect and have cannabis, ecstasy, cocaine and heroin in the shops next week, can you imagine the effect on gangs sitting on stockpiles of this stuff watching their market evaporate before their eyes?
I'm not sure, you can still buy black market cigarettes and booze...and have never heard of anyone being done for purchasing. Point about adulteration and dodgy criminals remains valid.

It would wipe out a whole lot of gangs and criminals overnight. Take pressure off the judicial system, prisons etc...

As Public Realm says treat addiction as a health issue, not as a crime. Imagine treating gambling addiction as a crime.

Every polll I have seen on the decriminalisation of drugs shows a vast majority in favour of it, why on earth are our politicians so far behind public thinking on this?
 

snorlax

Member
Dec 11, 2019
2,026
1,948
Follow the money. Where do you think all the proceeds end up?

Not in deprived areas.

Fsr more than one property in Blackrock has been bought with dirty money.
How many people are getting murdered and terrorised in Blackrock due to gang/drugs related activites? There are Loads of drugs going on in areas like Blackrock but you don't see the associated violence that you do in areas that have been neglected, especially over the last ten years or so.
 

snorlax

Member
Dec 11, 2019
2,026
1,948
Is "Austerity" the new "Poverty'?

Are the farmers suffering Austerity or Poverty?

Austerity has led to serious cutbacks in areas that have developed these problems over the last few years. This was a deliberate choice made and enforced by FF and Fg led governments over the last decade.
 

Truthisfree

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,189
2,330
I was in Olhão recently and did take close note of any drug use there and Faro, you do see heroin addicts passing by on the streets at times and that is about it. I found the streets to be very safe no matter what time nor what district we were in. Sometimes you would see young lads sitting outside bars smoking a joint and playing cards having a laugh but zero bad vibes.

I wonder how many people who are against decriminalising drugs visit Portugal and don't even realise it has been there for almost 20 years. Anyone I come across that visits Portugal I point this out to them and am always met with complete surprise from them.
 

Shaadi

Member
Feb 16, 2019
2,594
2,890
How many people are getting murdered and terrorised in Blackrock due to gang/drugs related activites? There are Loads of drugs going on in areas like Blackrock but you don't see the associated violence that you do in areas that have been neglected, especially over the last ten years or so.
The foot soldiers doing the dirty work for their bosses will always come from deprived areas..
 
Top Bottom