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Murder, Drugs, Violence, Theft, Corporate Crime etc .. a thread

curio

Member
Feb 26, 2019
4,007
3,666
When you read pieces like this it does show how much the state had a hand in making people disappear via institutions.

The last Magdalene laundry only closed in 1995.
 

snorlax

Member
Dec 11, 2019
2,026
1,948
The foot soldiers doing the dirty work for their bosses will always come from deprived areas..
And those that profit off the misery their activities create live in areas where they are protected from the results.
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
Decriminalisation/legalisation and regulation of recreational drugs is a question of "when", not "if", IMHO - but it will have to be an initiative at the EU level - national drug policies of EU member states has created a ridiculous situation: the czechs have completely decriminalised cannabis, for example, but Poland still officially has hefty fines and prison sentences for cannabis possession. But no border checks between the two countries.

Given the EU's four freedoms, national drugs policy cannot work.

People will not stop using recreational drugs. The only effective way to remove organised crime from the equation is through legitimising recreational use. Doing so will have negative effects, but it would be a less hypocritical and more manageable situation than the current one.

Misspells - "the real problem IS the breakdown in society "
 
Nov 27, 2018
4,975
6,744

Misspells - "the real problem IS the breakdown in society "

Misspells - "the real problem IS the breakdown in society "
Is it misspelt? It makes more sense with "in" - there is a breakdown in society, and it is being caused by a problem, but he's not saying what that problem in. You have to listen to his show to find out presumably. Drumming up listeners.

But it's rubbish. "Breakdown in society" is just rhetoric. If there'd a breakdown in society, then it's been going on since society began. The hasn't fallen on our heads.

Receational drugs, legal and illegal, have been used by "society" since it's beginning also.

Many posters have pointed out that Portugal didn't collapse after decriminalisation, its economic breakdown was far harsher to the country than any change in drugs policy.

What it did do was significantly lower the rate of drug-related deaths.

The current drugs policy is clearly ineffective. Drugs fund gangs. Cutting, or at least reducing, the funding won't destroy society, but it might make society a little bit more stable.
 

curio

Member
Feb 26, 2019
4,007
3,666
At least first time drug offenders are now referred to the HSE rather than the courts. It is the start of a rational approach.
 

Truthisfree

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,189
2,330
At least first time drug offenders are now referred to the HSE rather than the courts. It is the start of a rational approach.
It is indeed but not enough, they need to take the bull by the horns and adopt the Portuguese model, almost 20 years on the go and still working. Otherwise we will be reading about these drug related killings for ever.
 

curio

Member
Feb 26, 2019
4,007
3,666
It is indeed but not enough, they need to take the bull by the horns and adopt the Portuguese model, almost 20 years on the go and still working. Otherwise we will be reading about these drug related killings for ever.
The Portuguese model didn't happen overnight and if I'm not mistaken it started in the manner.
 

Truthisfree

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,189
2,330
The Portuguese model didn't happen overnight and if I'm not mistaken it started in the manner.
There was a judge pressing for change for some time, but the change did take place overnight in 2001.
That was almost 20 years ago, why are we so slow?
 

curio

Member
Feb 26, 2019
4,007
3,666
There was a judge pressing for change for some time, but the change did take place overnight in 2001.
That was almost 20 years ago, why are we so slow?
Maybe we're only at the same place as they were then.

It does feel like there is progress happening in different areas, the injection centre finally getting permission and Portrane opening more beds soon will no doubt help people who need institutional care.
 

Truthisfree

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,189
2,330
Maybe we're only at the same place as they were then.

It does feel like there is progress happening in different areas, the injection centre finally getting permission and Portrane opening more beds soon will no doubt help people who need institutional care.
I hope you are right Curio, the biggest worry I have always had is that at some stage some Chinese or whoever chemist would come up with a synthetic drug that would prove to be the worst thing ever to hit the streets and create a generation of Zombies.

It has been shown in Portugal that when given freedom of choice users choose less aggressive/harmful drugs like cocaine and extacy rather than heroin or meth (Alcohol is included in this list too, 50% reduction in admissions to A&E from alcohol poisoning since decriminalisation)
 

Shaadi

Member
Feb 16, 2019
2,594
2,890
An investigation is under way into an incident in the Mayfield area of Cork city overnight in which a man was doused in petrol before being set alight.

The condition of the 23-year-old victim is believed to be serious.

It is understood three men entered the house at Dun Ard estate in Lotabeg at around 4am and attacked the young man.


His family raised the alarm after the attackers fled.

Two cars were later recovered and are being examined by gardaí.



Just another day of it....
 

Bill

Member
Mar 9, 2019
2,243
2,438
Livin' La Veda Lockdown
I hope you are right Curio, the biggest worry I have always had is that at some stage some Chinese or whoever chemist would come up with a synthetic drug that would prove to be the worst thing ever to hit the streets and create a generation of Zombies.

It has been shown in Portugal that when given freedom of choice users choose less aggressive/harmful drugs like cocaine and extacy rather than heroin or meth (Alcohol is included in this list too, 50% reduction in admissions to A&E from alcohol poisoning since decriminalisation)
that's already happened
 

Truthisfree

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,189
2,330
various synthetic legal highs
Lot of those people seemed to have multiple problems though, from mental health issues to cross addiction, it is only when a synthetic high starts creating mayhem among the middle classes will anything be done unfortunately.
 

Dasayev

Member
Feb 20, 2019
397
425
I think the main problem is there is no strategy. Our politicians are neither liberal nor authoritarian when it comes to crime. They are not for legalisation of drugs nor are they for fighting a war on drugs. So drugs are illegal but there is an almost laissez faire approach taken beyond that.

Added to that, the criminals running the show are so incredibly stupid. They've got a whole country to operate in, but instead of dividing up the market like a cartel, they end up killing eachother over next to nothing.

Inevitably a Wild West has been created - morons with guns, and a state that doesn't intervene until it absolutely must.

So you've got this big problem that has been allowed to fester for decades. To tackle it, whichever way you want, you'd need massive resources and capable politicians.

If you go the authoritarian route you need more prisons and guards. All very expensive.

If you go the liberal route you are still left with problems. Do you import heroin or cocaine? You may eliminate criminality here but you've got to deal with criminals somewhere - Colombia, Burma, Afghanistan etc. Or else you can create a whole new domestic drug industry in this country, that is regulated and taxed.

Make it a health issue? The health system is already stretched. And for most drugs users this is not an issue. You're just wasting the time of medical professionals.

And there is one question that is never asked around drugs and that is - why people are taking drugs? Is it to be fashionable or are people miserable and need an escape? Is it just part and parcel of global capitalism or a warning about soulless consumerism.

So it's a question about culture, economics, rights and responsibilities etc.

At this stage we probably need a Citizen's Assembly to take a look at it. It's just too big an issue for the limited politicians we have.
 

hollandia

Literally knows shit
Staff member
Moderator
Member
So you've got this big problem that has been allowed to fester for decades. To tackle it, whichever way you want, you'd need massive resources and capable politicians.
This. This was allowed to develop since the 70's and we're now in the third generation of criminals and the third generation of users in some places in central Dublin and Cork. I'm particularly referring to heroin here, with cocaine arriving in a real big way around the start of the tiger years.

We have a ruling political class who have done precisely nothing , largely because up until recently the people who developed drug problems were people who lived in the inner cities, in deprived areas and critical who did not really vote.

Interestingly, one of the side effects of the troubles in the north was that there was no real hard drugs trade (larelgy due to the main paramilitary groups having no truck with it) until the late nineties until criminals associated with some of the loyalist and some of the fringe republican groups got involved. Parts of Belfast (particularly Castle Street) now resemble parts of Dublin City Centre - replete with homeless junkies. Not something I ever saw on the streets of Belfast until very recently.

And there is one question that is never asked around drugs and that is - why people are taking drugs? Is it to be fashionable or are people miserable and need an escape? Is it just part and parcel of global capitalism or a warning about soulless consumerism.
Escapism. From a shit life, shit circumstances, shitty relationships. Also curiosity/hedonism in some cases.

At this stage we probably need a Citizen's Assembly to take a look at it. It's just too big an issue for the limited politicians we have.
That's a cop out. But, since we repeatedly elect politicians with no gumption, it's probably the best way forward at this point.
 

Shaadi

Member
Feb 16, 2019
2,594
2,890
This. This was allowed to develop since the 70's and we're now in the third generation of criminals and the third generation of users in some places in central Dublin and Cork. I'm particularly referring to heroin here, with cocaine arriving in a real big way around the start of the tiger years.

We have a ruling political class who have done precisely nothing , largely because up until recently the people who developed drug problems were people who lived in the inner cities, in deprived areas and critical who did not really vote.

Interestingly, one of the side effects of the troubles in the north was that there was no real hard drugs trade (larelgy due to the main paramilitary groups having no truck with it) until the late nineties until criminals associated with some of the loyalist and some of the fringe republican groups got involved. Parts of Belfast (particularly Castle Street) now resemble parts of Dublin City Centre - replete with homeless junkies. Not something I ever saw on the streets of Belfast until very recently.



Escapism. From a shit life, shit circumstances, shitty relationships. Also curiosity/hedonism in some cases.



That's a cop out. But, since we repeatedly elect politicians with no gumption, it's probably the best way forward at this point.
Cui bono?

The Professions and Garda have a great little earner going on, why would they be overly interested in reducing that which pays the way ( Lord make me pure but not yet) ? The politicians are bestest buddies with those who don't particularly want change who also happen to be the exact groups who could push change.
 
Nov 27, 2018
4,975
6,744
I think the main problem is there is no strategy. Our politicians are neither liberal nor authoritarian when it comes to crime. They are not for legalisation of drugs nor are they for fighting a war on drugs. So drugs are illegal but there is an almost laissez faire approach taken beyond that.



If you go the liberal route you are still left with problems. Do you import heroin or cocaine? You may eliminate criminality here but you've got to deal with criminals somewhere - Colombia, Burma, Afghanistan etc. Or else you can create a whole new domestic drug industry in this country, that is regulated and taxed.

Make it a health issue? The health system is already stretched. And for most drugs users this is not an issue. You're just wasting the time of medical professionals.
This is exactly why I've switched from thinking that decriminalisation is the way to go to thinking that decriminalisation's a fudge and the only long-term option is complete legalisation. Only legalisation will allow for all stages of the supply-chain to be as free as possible from organised crime.

And there is one question that is never asked around drugs and that is - why people are taking drugs? Is it to be fashionable or are people miserable and need an escape? Is it just part and parcel of global capitalism or a warning about soulless consumerism.
It's a difficult question, though, and I don't think there is one answer. Recreational drug users are not a homogenous group, and policies that view dug users as a homogenous group will fail because they are over-simplistic. Some people take drugs to be fashionable, some because they want to escape the hell of their lives, other to enhance their lives, others because they are self-medicating for a range of health issues from mental disorders to MS, and other simply because they like to.

Asking the question "why do people consume alcohol?" or even "why do people eat chocolate?" will similarly result in a lot of possible answers, not just one.

What we do know, however, is that drug use (whether legal or illegal) is a lot older than modern society. The specific drugs have changed over time, but there has always been a drive in human beings to find a way to get off their heads. And not only humans; many other mammals do consume substances purely for the pleasure of "the buzz".

We can't simply say drug usage is a result of capitalism, although naturally capitalism lends itself to exploiting drug use to generate a profit. The only option then is who we let profit from the drug trade. Better the state than illegal private enterprise.


So it's a question about culture, economics, rights and responsibilities etc.
Absolutely. What has failed is governments trying to frame it as purely an issue of criminality.

At this stage we probably need a Citizen's Assembly to take a look at it. It's just too big an issue for the limited politicians we have.
I think this is a very good idea. At the very least, it would allow the debate to develop, rather than being a convenient political football. Ming Flanagan did well out of making this a niche issue, but it needs to be treated as something more than a novelty platform.
 

Dasayev

Member
Feb 20, 2019
397
425
This is exactly why I've switched from thinking that decriminalisation is the way to go to thinking that decriminalisation's a fudge and the only long-term option is complete legalisation. Only legalisation will allow for all stages of the supply-chain to be as free as possible from organised crime.

Well I don't care about drugs. However, the criminal gangs represent a danger to society. The richer and more powerful they become, the more brazen and vicious they are sure to be. And with that comes a greater chance of poisoning the whole well.

Having an embedded mafia, not only controlling territory, but also corrupting the wider State is a possibility. If it takes legalisation of drugs to prevent this from happening, and reverse the damage they have already done, then so be it, in my opinion.


It's a difficult question, though, and I don't think there is one answer. Recreational drug users are not a homogenous group, and policies that view dug users as a homogenous group will fail because they are over-simplistic. Some people take drugs to be fashionable, some because they want to escape the hell of their lives, other to enhance their lives, others because they are self-medicating for a range of health issues from mental disorders to MS, and other simply because they like to.

Asking the question "why do people consume alcohol?" or even "why do people eat chocolate?" will similarly result in a lot of possible answers, not just one.

What we do know, however, is that drug use (whether legal or illegal) is a lot older than modern society. The specific drugs have changed over time, but there has always been a drive in human beings to find a way to get off their heads. And not only humans; many other mammals do consume substances purely for the pleasure of "the buzz".

We can't simply say drug usage is a result of capitalism, although naturally capitalism lends itself to exploiting drug use to generate a profit. The only option then is who we let profit from the drug trade. Better the state than illegal private enterprise.

The thing about drugs though is that there seems to be a correlation with the societal and economic changes of the last few decades. We've moved from a being a Catholic country to a consumer economy, and drug use has risen along with it.

Ireland has become fat like America, and drug use seems to be of American proportions now too.

But are drugs just another consumer distraction or are they a coping mechanism for a people who are being told to produce more and more, consume more and more and who are always on the go?

We can recognise that drug use has always existed in some form or other, but if society and the economy was ordered differently would there be such a demand for drugs?

And is the near laissez faire attitude by the authorities a recognition by the State that drug use is a by-product of an Americanised society operating at an unhealthy capacity?

If there was a Citizen's Assembly created around this issue, then I'd want it to be about more than just "tax and regulate".
 

paddyc

Member
Mar 8, 2019
159
168
Start with weed, the gateway drug. Legalize it and tax it. It has worked well in other jurisdictions. Then move up the ladder from there.
Cigarettes are the gateway drug.

I would safely say that there isn't a person out there who has taken drugs at some stage in their life who didn't have an illicit puff on a ciggy first.

The way we deal with nicotine addiction is to discourage people from starting to smoke by banning advertising for cigarettes, by labelling cigarettes with warnings and images and by making smoking expensive, inconvenient and illegal for under 18s. We also provide as much assistance as possible to anyone trying to quit nicotine.

Personally, I would like to see a crack down on vaping, starting with a ban on all vaping advertising and making them hide their product behind shutters, the way cigarettes are hidden away.
 

paddyc

Member
Mar 8, 2019
159
168
Well I don't care about drugs. However, the criminal gangs represent a danger to society. The richer and more powerful they become, the more brazen and vicious they are sure to be. And with that comes a greater chance of poisoning the whole well.

Having an embedded mafia, not only controlling territory, but also corrupting the wider State is a possibility. If it takes legalisation of drugs to prevent this from happening, and reverse the damage they have already done, then so be it, in my opinion.





The thing about drugs though is that there seems to be a correlation with the societal and economic changes of the last few decades. We've moved from a being a Catholic country to a consumer economy, and drug use has risen along with it.

Ireland has become fat like America, and drug use seems to be of American proportions now too.

But are drugs just another consumer distraction or are they a coping mechanism for a people who are being told to produce more and more, consume more and more and who are always on the go?

We can recognise that drug use has always existed in some form or other, but if society and the economy was ordered differently would there be such a demand for drugs?

And is the near laissez faire attitude by the authorities a recognition by the State that drug use is a by-product of an Americanised society operating at an unhealthy capacity?

If there was a Citizen's Assembly created around this issue, then I'd want it to be about more than just "tax and regulate".
Drug use has increased with disposable income.

Cocaine use went up in the boom, down in the bust and is on its way back up again.
 

Dasayev

Member
Feb 20, 2019
397
425
Seems a Garda file on the Drogheda feud has ended up in criminal hands.

Ken Foy
"There are major fears of an escalation in the Drogheda feud after part of a highly-sensitive Garda document fell into criminal hands.
The Irish Independent can reveal gangsters on one side of the bitter rift have obtained confidential personal information on some of their rivals."

"While it is not believed that the leak was deliberate, a major probe is under way to determine how the information ended up in the wrong hands."

"The document has been circulated on social media..."

"The criminal intelligence document was stolen from an unattended squad car parked at a south Dublin garda station."
 

ruserious

Member
Dec 4, 2018
5,314
5,152

While it is a welcome campaign, if one wants to “change attitudes” every now and again, they should change the attacker to be someone other than male.
 
Nov 27, 2018
4,975
6,744

While it is a welcome campaign, if one wants to “change attitudes” every now and again, they should change the attacker to be someone other than male.
You have a point, but the attacker, in an overwhelming majority of cases, is male.

It's a bit like the issue of sexual crimes/rape being reported. Making it less traumatic for rape victims to report the crime may lead to more spurious/bogus claims of rape, the number of bogus claims would be far, far less than the number of valid claims that would be reported.

While harassment and abuse is by no means exclusively "male on female", focusing mostly on "male on female" harassment and abuse may yield more positive results in the short-term than trying to deconstruct wholesale the assumptions about harassment and abuse, especially since we still seem to be stuck with thinking the type of clothes a person wears is a proxy for consent.

False assumptions and attitudes can only be broken down incrementally, not all at once. Tiny steps.
 
D

Deleted member 168

Guest

While it is a welcome campaign, if one wants to “change attitudes” every now and again, they should change the attacker to be someone other than male.
What would that achieve? There are probably more abusers in certain professions (doctors, teachers, not to mention priests) than there are female abusers. It's probably more urgent to change the attitude that "respectable" men don't abuse than that women do. Because women overwhelmingly don't.
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
The WORLD, and IRELAND gone mad. I wonder has lockdowns and isolation been a thing that has spurred events like this on? Been a few now over last year and a half? Here is two in last 48 hours:

1. First we have this double Murder Suicide in Lixnaw Co. Kerry on TUESDAY:


Gardaí investigating the double murder-suicide that has rocked a small north Kerry community say they have "no motive" for the killings.

Gardaí are “keeping an open mind” as to why Morris “Mossie” O’Sullivan, 63, shot his partner Eileen, 56, and the couple’s son, Jamie, 24, at their home in Lixnaw, Co Kerry on Tuesday evening.


2. And then this very strange one in a doctors surgery waiting room last Tuesday evening. Guy fatally shot himself in the waiting room with his pistol


Gardaí are treating as a personal tragedy the death of a university lecturer who shot himself in a doctor’s surgery in north Cork.

It is understood that he was in possession of a legally held licensed firearm - believed to have been a pistol.
 
Last edited:

midlander12

Member
Dec 4, 2018
3,794
2,558
The WORLD, and IRELAND gone mad. I wonder has lockdowns and isolation been a thing that has spurred events like this on? Been a few now over last year and a half? Here is two in last 48 hours:

1. First we have this double Murder Suicide in Lixnaw Co. Kerry on TUESDAY:


Gardaí investigating the double murder-suicide that has rocked a small north Kerry community say they have "no motive" for the killings.

Gardaí are “keeping an open mind” as to why Morris “Mossie” O’Sullivan, 63, shot his partner Eileen, 56, and the couple’s son, Jamie, 24, at their home in Lixnaw, Co Kerry on Tuesday evening.


2. And then this very strange one in a doctors surgery waiting room last Tuesday evening. Guy fatally shot himself in the waiting room with his pistol


Gardaí are treating as a personal tragedy the death of a university lecturer who shot himself in a doctor’s surgery in north Cork.

It is understood that he was in possession of a legally held licensed firearm - believed to have been a pistol.
While I have posted previously on the mental health effects of lockdowns (and got very little response!), I would be slow to make a direct connection in these extreme events. These murder-suicides have become all too common but they did not start with the pandemic, and given that most restrictions were lifted months ago, it's stretching it to link them with these two recent events.

Extreme events aside, there is in my view a frightening level of mental health issues in this country and (pious platitudes aside) an unwillingness to be open about their existence. State mental health services are also dire of course, meaning only the wealthy or those with insurance cover can get help, but a change of attitudes is every bit as important.
 

Bonkers

Member
Feb 15, 2019
4,965
4,701
While I have posted previously on the mental health effects of lockdowns (and got very little response!), I would be slow to make a direct connection in these extreme events. These murder-suicides have become all too common but they did not start with the pandemic, and given that most restrictions were lifted months ago, it's stretching it to link them with these two recent events.

Extreme events aside, there is in my view a frightening level of mental health issues in this country and (pious platitudes aside) an unwillingness to be open about their existence. State mental health services are also dire of course, meaning only the wealthy or those with insurance cover can get help, but a change of attitudes is every bit as important.
I can only go with my own experience regarding getting help. I mentioned to my renal consultant that I was back suffering with panic attacks during the lockdown. I might’ve been very lucky but within two weeks I was getting the help I needed.
 

seanof

Member
Nov 27, 2018
2,896
2,856
The WORLD, and IRELAND gone mad. I wonder has lockdowns and isolation been a thing that has spurred events like this on? Been a few now over last year and a half? Here is two in last 48 hours:

1. First we have this double Murder Suicide in Lixnaw Co. Kerry on TUESDAY:


Gardaí investigating the double murder-suicide that has rocked a small north Kerry community say they have "no motive" for the killings.

Gardaí are “keeping an open mind” as to why Morris “Mossie” O’Sullivan, 63, shot his partner Eileen, 56, and the couple’s son, Jamie, 24, at their home in Lixnaw, Co Kerry on Tuesday evening.


2. And then this very strange one in a doctors surgery waiting room last Tuesday evening. Guy fatally shot himself in the waiting room with his pistol


Gardaí are treating as a personal tragedy the death of a university lecturer who shot himself in a doctor’s surgery in north Cork.

It is understood that he was in possession of a legally held licensed firearm - believed to have been a pistol.
Murder suicides seem to be increasingly common but they didn't start with the pandemic lockdown. In this following case from 2016, the Guards tasered one of the victims attacked https://www.mayonews.ie/news/31158-horrific-evidence-heard-at-murder-suicide-inquest

It's interesting that in the second recent case you mention above that the firearm used was a pistol. I understood that licenses for pistols were only issued for self defense purposes but I may be wrong.
 

midlander12

Member
Dec 4, 2018
3,794
2,558
I can only go with my own experience regarding getting help. I mentioned to my renal consultant that I was back suffering with panic attacks during the lockdown. I might’ve been very lucky but within two weeks I was getting the help I needed.
Very glad to hear it, but it's not the impression one gets from media coverage generally.
 

Bonkers

Member
Feb 15, 2019
4,965
4,701
Murder suicides seem to be increasingly common but they didn't start with the pandemic lockdown. In this following case from 2016, the Guards tasered one of the victims attacked https://www.mayonews.ie/news/31158-horrific-evidence-heard-at-murder-suicide-inquest

It's interesting that in the second recent case you mention above that the firearm used was a pistol. I understood that licenses for pistols were only issued for self defense purposes but I may be wrong.
I don’t mean to generalise but in rural areas a lot of this seems to happen over land.
 
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