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POTUS Joe Biden.

Cruimh

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[MOD] - sometimes a moderator will unapprove a post so that the moderator team can decide whether to leave it, edit it, ask the poster to edit it or delete it.
And for the first few posts a newly joined member will be pre-moderated - to avoid spamming or troublemaking. If the Posts are unacceptable then they will not appear on the site. [/MOD]
 

hollandia

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Ok, we're clear on this finally: you're a proto fascist. By your own admission. Maybe those more normal posters who agree with your assertion that "US law is the law so suck it up" should think about where this position leads.
Really? A proto-fascist? You really need to stop projecting on to other posters. The world is much more nuanced than simple "if you aren't for us, you're agin us" pigeonholing.
 

Cruimh

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Really? A proto-fascist? You really need to stop projecting on to other posters. The world is much more nuanced than simple "if you aren't for us, you're agin us" pigeonholing.
Proto-fascist? There's a blast from the past - last time I heard that bandied about was RDE quoting Eoghan Harris some 18 months ago - maybe Snorlax is a fan?

Eoghan Harris wrote what many of us have good reason to believe: "Sinn Fein, for all its socialist rhetoric, is really a right-wing nationalist party, with a proto-fascist future agenda.
 

T. Leaf

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Nov 28, 2018
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Yeah, and here are their counterparts:


The difference between you and I is that you support one of these groups, while I support neither.
Antifa is a loose organization of people who oppose fascism. The protesters in that video carried no guns although they were confrontational. The police weren't afraid of that group since they charged them. Is it the militias the police are terrified of?
 

Jaysus

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Sep 6, 2021
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Antifa is a loose organization of people who oppose fascism. The protesters in that video carried no guns although they were confrontational. The police weren't afraid of that group since they charged them. Is it the militias the police are terrified of?
Those police are in Portland this weekend, some two thousand miles and 14 months away from the Kenosha riots.
 

T. Leaf

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Nov 28, 2018
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Those police are in Portland this weekend, some two thousand miles and 14 months away from the Kenosha riots.
Sorry, but you posted that video and since you posted it, it is surely open for comment. Just to be clear, I am totally opposed to any violence in support of any cause whatsoever. I also realise that talking only works if both sides listen as well. In a democratic country like the USA it is up to the voters to make sure their country doesn't slide into fascism, and that can be done by keeping emotions in check during an election..
 

Jaysus

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Sep 6, 2021
370
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Sorry, but you posted that video and since you posted it, it is surely open for comment. Just to be clear, I am totally opposed to any violence in support of any cause whatsoever. I also realise that talking only works if both sides listen as well. In a democratic country like the USA it is up to the voters to make sure their country doesn't slide into fascism, and that can be done by keeping emotions in check during an election..
I posted the video as a rebuttal to a video of the “others” posted by Snorlax. It’s all very “you’re either with me or against me” regarding the issue with certain types on this thread. As Hollandia pointed out, there seems to be very little room for nuance. Hard to believe that we aren’t even a year removed from when the ERU murdered that poor Nkencho lad in cold blood while he was in his house, isn’t it? See what I mean about nuance?
 

Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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Really? A proto-fascist? You really need to stop projecting on to other posters. The world is much more nuanced than simple "if you aren't for us, you're agin us" pigeonholing.

We should take the positives out of this it could of been worse......

Jaysus could of been accused of looking for reasons to vote for the Labour party like i was last week......... :D
 

Bonkers

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Feb 15, 2019
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Biden has done the Punch Us Pilot and washed his hands. I’m happy that you see that.

The whole orange baboon thing is tiresome and unhelpful and designed to provoke a reaction. Straight out of the Antifa playbook. It’s why people like you who blindly support Antifa and their tactics are looked upon as zealots.
Do you know what antifa means? If you’re anti them it says a lot about you.
 

Bonkers

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Feb 15, 2019
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The police were terrified. Kenosha had become a lawless jurisdiction with businesses being burned to the ground by the rent a crowd. Of course they welcomed any support they could get.
Wow. I wonder if black vigilantes turned up would the terrified police have welcomed them.
 
Apr 24, 2020
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He did more than that. He harangued the prosecution, dismissed video evidence on ridiculous grounds, was openly sympathetic with the defendant, made racist remarks about Asians and had Trump's theme song as his ringtone! Seriously, anyone who thinks this verdict was 'justice' is deluded. The US justice system has shown itself to favour armed racist vigilantes. If the defendant were black he wouldn't have even made it to trial as the cops would have shot him. The ACTUAL point of this trial was not to try Rittenhouse. It was actually to put the BLM movement on trial and to legitimise violence against protestors against racist violence. It succeded. The US is no longer a functioning democracy (if it ever was when it came to Racial equality).
That Rittenhouse was acquitted shows how screwed up the case and US law is.

Legally, it's probably sound. Morally, not so much. The Judge's conduct was awful.

The emboldening of vigilantes is the worst part...

Neither Justice, or America were served by the verdict.
 
Nov 27, 2018
4,975
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The essential problem with speaking about Antifa as a cohesive group or entity is that it isn’t, or rather they aren’t.

anyne can self-denitrify as “antifa” - there’s no fixed ideology or rule book. There is no hierarchy and no high command” They only consensus is contained within the name: anti-fascist. There’s no consensus on how a person or group should be anti-fascist, nor any consensus on what should be posited as an alternative to fascism.

So “antifa” runs the whole spectrum of centrist liberal / center-left though to anarchism and communism. attitudes of members run from being quite pragmatic and em sensible to woefully overidealistic to dangerously extremist, pro-terrorism and anti-democratic.

“Antifa” can’t be framed as an organisation.
 
Sep 15, 2021
109
78
Really? A proto-fascist? You really need to stop projecting on to other posters. The world is much more nuanced than simple "if you aren't for us, you're agin us" pigeonholing.
You need to think a bit more clearly about this. If somebody approves of members a group called ANTI FASCIST ACTION being shot by vigilantes, what does that make them?
 
Sep 15, 2021
109
78
The essential problem with speaking about Antifa as a cohesive group or entity is that it isn’t, or rather they aren’t.

anyne can self-denitrify as “antifa” - there’s no fixed ideology or rule book. There is no hierarchy and no high command” They only consensus is contained within the name: anti-fascist. There’s no consensus on how a person or group should be anti-fascist, nor any consensus on what should be posited as an alternative to fascism.

So “antifa” runs the whole spectrum of centrist liberal / center-left though to anarchism and communism. attitudes of members run from being quite pragmatic and em sensible to woefully overidealistic to dangerously extremist, pro-terrorism and anti-democratic.

“Antifa” can’t be framed as an organisation.
Yet according to Jaysus, apparently I'm a paid up member of said 'organisation'. 'Anti fa' just means anti fascist. Apprently being anti fasicist is legit grounds for being shot in the US nowadays.
 

hollandia

Literally knows shit
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You need to think a bit more clearly about this. If somebody approves of members a group called ANTI FASCIST ACTION being shot by vigilantes, what does that make them?
Let me be EXTREMELY clear about this. I do not need to "think more clearly about this." I have an opinion, that I am entitled to, and what's more have arrived at over considered thought.
Secondly, you are misrepresenting what the poster is saying. I see no evidence that @Jaysus condones the shooting of anyone.
Try engaging with what people say, rather than what you think they say, or perceive them to be implying.
 
Sep 15, 2021
109
78
Let me be EXTREMELY clear about this. I do not need to "think more clearly about this." I have an opinion, that I am entitled to, and what's more have arrived at over considered thought.
Secondly, you are misrepresenting what the poster is saying. I see no evidence that @Jaysus condones the shooting of anyone.
Try engaging with what people say, rather than what you think they say, or perceive them to be implying.
You're entitled to an opinion, and I'm entitled to point out where that opinion leads: i.e condoning vigilanteism against a certain group of people. I am not misrepresenting what Jaysus is saying nor am I 'projecting'. That's YOUR take on my posts. (S)He's the one that brought up anti fa as a 'dangerous' organisation who prey on cops and thus Rittenhouse (an armed viglante who shot three protestors) was HELPING a besieged police force against those nasty lawless antifa types. That's what he WROTE. Fact. Stop misrepresenting what I wrote. Thank you.
 

Cruimh

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Not quite. I'm sure most anti Nazis in the forties and fifties weren't huge fans of the Stalin Era Red Army or KGB either.
That was the false logic used to justify the persecution of opponents by Hitler and Stalin. Anybody critical of the Nazis HAD to be a red, and anybody critical of Stalin HAD to be a Nazi
 

Bonkers

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Feb 15, 2019
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Let me be EXTREMELY clear about this. I do not need to "think more clearly about this." I have an opinion, that I am entitled to, and what's more have arrived at over considered thought.
Secondly, you are misrepresenting what the poster is saying. I see no evidence that @Jaysus condones the shooting of anyone.
Try engaging with what people say, rather than what you think they say, or perceive them to be implying.
He said the besieged police were glad of the help they got from armed vigilantes. He was right about that as they let him go home after shooting 3 people.
 

Cruimh

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You're entitled to an opinion, and I'm entitled to point out where that opinion leads: i.e condoning vigilanteism against a certain group of people. I am not misrepresenting what Jaysus is saying nor am I 'projecting'. That's YOU'RE take on my posts. (S)He's the one that brought up anti fa as a 'dangerous' organisation who pray on cops and thus Rittenhouse (an armed viglante who shot three protestors) was HELPING a besieged police force against those nasty lawless antifa types. That's what he WROTE. Fact. Stop misrepresenting what I wrote. Thank you.
Did Rittenhouse shoot 3 protestors or did he shoot 3 men who were attacking him? Legally there is quite a difference.

Of course that he was a minor with a gun who shouldn't have been there in the first place is an issue.
But his presence did not mean that opponents had the right to attack him. Or make his killing in self-defence "murder" - a loaded word in itself.
 
Nov 27, 2018
4,975
6,744
Yet according to Jaysus, apparently I'm a paid up member of said 'organisation'. 'Anti fa' just means anti fascist. Apprently being anti fasicist is legit grounds for being shot in the US nowadays.
No, it’s not. You need to tone down the hyperbole. The trial was mishandled, as to where the blame of that mishandling lies is essentially the discussion. Given that mishandling if the trial, it was not possible for the jury to return a “guilty” verdict.

This does not mean that the killings were legitimate, it means that is was not possible to return a “guilty” verdict. Not the same thing at all.

Ss fir “Antifa”, It’s not an organisation, but it is an umbrella “brand”. I’m speaking as someone who has chosen to take part in activities under than “brand” and may well do again, but have no illusions that there are, amongst some very well-intentioned and socially aware people, some extremely violent and nasty people also. There’s no vetting,

There are pluses and minuses in perpetuating a political/social “brand” like Antifa. The pluses are that it’s a means of visibly showing
solidarity. The most obvious minus is that it has allowed restrictions right-wing governments, parties and organisations to avoid acknowledging that a large cross-section of the general population oppose them and can instead say it is only a specific organisation that oppose them, and opposes them only to further their own hidden agenda.

As for your tone on this thread, you do come across as the left-wing activist version of “the only gay in the village”. There are a lot of people who are actively involved in social and political issues, and it is not the case that those who shout loudest and use the most emotive language are those who are actually being the most productive.

I do wonder, for all your rhetoric, when have you ever actually had to deal with fascism in your daily life?
 
Sep 15, 2021
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78
Did Rittenhouse shoot 3 protestors or did he shoot 3 men who were attacking him? Legally there is quite a difference.

Of course that he was a minor with a gun who shouldn't have been there in the first place is an issue.
But his presence did not mean that opponents had the right to attack him. Or make his killing in self-defence "murder" - a loaded word in itself.
If you go to a demo with an AK 47 to 'protect property' and shoot two unarmed protestors, it's murder as far as I'm concerned.
 
Sep 15, 2021
109
78
No, it’s not. You need to tone down the hyperbole. The trial was mishandled, as to where the blame of that mishandling lies is essentially the discussion. Given that mishandling if the trial, it was not possible for the jury to return a “guilty” verdict.
According to Jaysus, it is. You are yet another poster who's not reading posts correctly. Thanks for the unfounded self righteous personal attacks though. I'll leave you guys to your own little circle of justifying US law enforcement and racially charged justice.
 

hollandia

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You're entitled to an opinion, and I'm entitled to point out where that opinion leads: i.e condoning vigilanteism against a certain group of people. I am not misrepresenting what Jaysus is saying nor am I 'projecting'. That's YOUR take on my posts. (S)He's the one that brought up anti fa as a 'dangerous' organisation who prey on cops and thus Rittenhouse (an armed viglante who shot three protestors) was HELPING a besieged police force against those nasty lawless antifa types. That's what he WROTE. Fact. Stop misrepresenting what I wrote. Thank you.
And yet you singularly haven't done that. Because you haven't addressed the issues raised by other posters. You have addressed what you think they are, which is an entirely different thing altogether.
You are tilting at windmills.
 

Cruimh

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If you go to a demo with an AK 47 to 'protect property' and shoot two unarmed protestors, it's murder as far as I'm concerned.
But not according to the Law. In America people are allowed to defend themselves if being attacked. If the reports I read are correct the men attacked him.

It shouldn't have happened. He shouldn't have been there. A Minor should NOT have a gun IMO - but those do not entitle people to attack him and under American law he was entitled to defend himself.
 
Apr 24, 2020
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But not according to the Law. In America people are allowed to defend themselves if being attacked. If the reports I read are correct the men attacked him.

It shouldn't have happened. He shouldn't have been there. A Minor should NOT have a gun IMO - but those do not entitle people to attack him and under American law he was entitled to defend himself.
Yep. There is a big difference between the law and justice. US laws create these situations.

And that's before the awful "stand your ground" stuff.

The obsession with enabling extreme violence leads to these outcomes..
 

Jaysus

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Sep 6, 2021
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Really? You obviously know very little about the police in America.

That’s the way it works with Nazis.
For a person who claims to be ill, you don’t do nuance at all, do you. You’ve gone full bore ACAB. It’s sad, really.

As has been pointed out to you above, I don’t condone the shooting of anyone in this incident. You, however, have decided that I’m on Rittenhouse’s “side” in the matter, and even gone as far as implying that I’m a Nazi?! What the actual hell goes on inside your head? Why are you so angry that you put words in others’ mouths… thoughts in their heads, even?

I was asked to clarify my position on the matter last night. I did that. I made it very clear that I feel that Rittenhouse should be, at a minimum in prison, if not death row. But because I see that the jury, under the law, had no choice but to arrive at a unanimous verdict, I’m a Nazi.

Lovely altogether. Really lovely.
 

Cruimh

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Yep. There is a big difference between the law and justice. US laws create these situations.

And that's before the awful "stand your ground" stuff.

The obsession with enabling extreme violence leads to these outcomes..
As a minor, I'm wondering is his parents can be held accountable for his behaviour?
After all as a minor his ability to make rational decisions is not developed.

Fourth, in taking a position on this issue, the Commission places great weight on recent and evolving brain development research that supports the position that for most 17-year olds the necessary decision-making and moderating functions of the brain are still developing. This leads to two conclusions: (1) that although 17-year olds are capable of “telling right from wrong” and capable of committing serious/violent crime(s), it is not necessarily appropriate to consider them “adult-like” for purposes of prosecution and sentencing, and (2) that 17-year olds remain more amenable to effective interventions and behavior change approaches than adults.
from Statement Related to Wisconsin’s Age of Adult Criminal Responsibility The Governor’s Juvenile Justice Commission supports legislation to adjust the age of original criminal responsibility to the age of 18 years.

 

Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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Really? You obviously know very little about the police in America.
If Jaysus is who i suspect he or she is i'd say they know a lot more about the police in America and the situation on the ground than most of us on this thread.....
 

Bonkers

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Feb 15, 2019
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If Jaysus is who i suspect he or she is i'd say they know a lot more about the police in America and the situation on the ground than most of us on this thread.....
He needs to show it then. If Rittenhouse were black they'd have riddled him.
 

Bonkers

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Feb 15, 2019
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For a person who claims to be ill, you don’t do nuance at all, do you. You’ve gone full bore ACAB. It’s sad, really.

As has been pointed out to you above, I don’t condone the shooting of anyone in this incident. You, however, have decided that I’m on Rittenhouse’s “side” in the matter, and even gone as far as implying that I’m a Nazi?! What the actual hell goes on inside your head? Why are you so angry that you put words in others’ mouths… thoughts in their heads, even?

I was asked to clarify my position on the matter last night. I did that. I made it very clear that I feel that Rittenhouse should be, at a minimum in prison, if not death row. But because I see that the jury, under the law, had no choice but to arrive at a unanimous verdict, I’m a Nazi.

Lovely altogether. Really lovely.
Why are you bringing up that I'm ill? WTF has that got to do with anything? I never said or implied you're a nazi. That's in your head. It's also a fact that if Rittenhouse happened to be black he'd be dead now. You seem to think the police would've welcomed him as just another vigilante.
 
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