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The Fracturing of British Politics

Gatsbygirl20

Member
Dec 2, 2018
9,999
14,131
If you have 3mil why do you need a peerage?
As soon as you have obscene amounts of money, you want other things as well--esteem, elevation....being kow-towed to...being high up on the bowing-and-scraping scale...being a "Lord".....sitting in the House Of Lords...hob-nobbing with other Lords.

When you've got the houses, the cars, the trappings of wealth--you get bored with mere things, and want to use your money to buy your way into the inner circle.
 

publicrealm

Member
Nov 27, 2018
7,605
10,389
If you have 3mil why do you need a peerage?
You get to call yourself Lord - and the missus becomes a Lady. Also, fancy dress and the House of Lords bit - and two fingers to the snooty neighbours and that time you were blackballed.

I would definitely go for it if I had a spare 3m.

But you also need a decent manor house with a moat and stuff - so the 3m would need to be small change.
 

publicrealm

Member
Nov 27, 2018
7,605
10,389
There is a monument to the local nob, whose wife used to hand out food to the deserving poor, near the village of Clarina in Limerick , inscribed with 'erected by his grateful tenantry'.

That impressed me deeply, from a young age.
 

Gatsbygirl20

Member
Dec 2, 2018
9,999
14,131
There is a monument to the local nob, whose wife used to hand out food to the deserving poor, near the village of Clarina in Limerick , inscribed with 'erected by his grateful tenantry'.

That impressed me deeply, from a young age.
There are lots of those monuments in Irish villages "In Grateful Remembrance By His Tenants.." etc

I think the tenants were press-ganged into handing over some dosh to help defray the cost somewhat, so that the "Erected By His Grateful Tenantry" would at least be in part, true.

Like the schoolchildren contributing to a present for Teacher.....
 

milipod

Member
Nov 27, 2018
11,658
10,890
Stepaside
There are lots of those monuments in Irish villages "In Grateful Remembrance By His Tenants.." etc

I think the tenants were press-ganged into handing over some dosh to help defray the cost somewhat, so that the "Erected By His Grateful Tenantry" would at least be in part, true.

Like the schoolchildren contributing to a present for Teacher.....
Like the famine wall on Killiney hill.
 

T. Leaf

Member
Nov 28, 2018
2,367
1,854
I didn't know that Boris Johnson had said this: “I genuinely believe that the UK is not remotely a corrupt country.”

The context is everything. 1:01

 

Ó Gabhainn

Member
Mar 12, 2019
501
439
I didn't know that Boris Johnson had said this: “I genuinely believe that the UK is not remotely a corrupt country.”

The context is everything. 1:01

It's obviously something that a leader who presides over and/or part-takes in corruption would say. Not the PM of the UK - no way Jose.
 

Prof Honeydew

Member
Nov 28, 2018
1,394
3,494
There's one simple step Starmer could take if he still wants to recapture the traditional Labour voters who defected to the Tories because of Brexit. All he has to do is to say the Six Counties is making Brexit unworkable for Britain so the best thing to do is get rid of the North. Just promise a Border poll once he gets back into power and then commit Labour to backing a United Ireland.

That would really screw Johnson and the Tories. They want their pure unadulterated Brexit but they can't deliver it without wrecking Britain in every way possible. Now Labour promises the magic solution and who in England really gives a shit about Donaldson, Dodds, Paisley Junior, Blood Pressure Sammy and all the other medieval Unionist Rocky Horror Show weirdos? Better to saw them off if they're getting in the way of Global Britannia once again ruling the waves.

But...aaah... there's a nagging voice I can't shut out telling me Starmer makes Micheál Martin look like Nelson Mandela when it comes to political vision. Say it ain't so, Eoghan Harris.
 
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paddyc

Member
Mar 8, 2019
159
168
There's one simple step Starmer could take if he still wants to recapture the traditional Labour voters who defected to the Tories because of Brexit. All he has to do is to say the Six Counties is making Brexit unworkable for Britain so the best thing to do is get rid of the North. Just promise a Border poll once he gets back into power and then commit Labour to backing a United Ireland.

That would really screw Johnson and the Tories. They want their pure unadulterated Brexit but they can't deliver it without wrecking Britain in every way possible. Now Labour promises the magic solution and who in England really gives a shit about Donaldson, Dodds, Paisley Junior, Blood Pressure Sammy and all the other medieval Unionist Rocky Horror Show weirdos? Better to saw them off if they're getting in the way of Global Britannia once again ruling the waves.

But...aaah... there's a nagging voice I can't shut out telling me Starmer makes Micheál Martin look like Nelson Mandela when it comes to political vision. Say it ain't so, Eoghan Harris.
Sadly Starmer has decided that the only way to make Labour respectable again to middle England after the Corbyn years is for him to be the Anti-Corbyn In thought, word and deed.

I can’t see him coming within a country mile of something, anything that seems remotely like something Corbyn would agree with or approve of.
 
Apr 24, 2020
2,203
2,078
There's one simple step Starmer could take if he still wants to recapture the traditional Labour voters who defected to the Tories because of Brexit. All he has to do is to say the Six Counties is making Brexit unworkable for Britain so the best thing to do is get rid of the North. Just promise a Border poll once he gets back into power and then commit Labour to backing a United Ireland.

That would really screw Johnson and the Tories. They want their pure unadulterated Brexit but they can't deliver it without wrecking Britain in every way possible. Now Labour promises the magic solution and who in England really gives a shit about Donaldson, Dodds, Paisley Junior, Blood Pressure Sammy and all the other medieval Unionist Rocky Horror Show weirdos? Better to saw them off if they're getting in the way of Global Britannia once again ruling the waves.

But...aaah... there's a nagging voice I can't shut out telling me Starmer makes Micheál Martin look like Nelson Mandela when it comes to political vision. Say it ain't so, Eoghan Harris.
NI makes (this) Brexit unworkable. True.

However, a smarter take for a new Labour (non tory) PM would be to appeal for a watered down brexit, closer to a CU brexit.

Only a new, non tory PM could do this.

Not sure if "dumping NI" is a vote winner. Or even a credible position for any PM to take, as the GFA is supposed to call the shots regarding when a Border poll happens.

Bouncing NI into a UI would be viewed badly, internationally, as reckless.

Now, a firm statement to the effect that " we will honour the protocol, and work with the EU to lessen negative effects on NI, whilst ensuring that Ireland's integrity within the customs union, and that of the EU is maintained, we need to be good neighbours. Brexit was our decision. Furthermore, as per the BA/GFA, we reassert that Britain has no selfish interest in NI. It is up to the people of NI to determine their constitutional position."

That would be as far as he should or could go.
 

hollandia

Literally knows shit
Staff member
Moderator
Member
Not sure if "dumping NI" is a vote winner. Or even a credible position for any PM to take, as the GFA is supposed to call the shots regarding when a Border poll happens.
You're entirely correct in this, however, we've seen two things of late;
  • A callous disregard for the people of NI who didn't want brexit, didn't ask for the protocol to be put in place, and certainly aren't asking for it's removal. The cynic in me feels that recent "disturbances" have been "directed" (subtly or explicitly) by Whitehall to justify their protocol stance.
  • A clear, overt and explicit signaling from HMG that international agreements and law are merely things that can be ignored as and when suitable for electoral and/or political purposes.
It's fair to say that NI rarely, if ever, factors into Whitehall thinking, except as leverage. And that is the most serious problem that we face.
 

CarlDoyle

Member
Feb 10, 2021
290
207
Not sure if "dumping NI" is a vote winner. Or even a credible position for any PM to take, as the GFA is supposed to call the shots regarding when a Border poll happens.
If nationalists in the Assembly elections are the largest bloc, then they could say that they feel that that meets the requirements for a poll. The Assembly elections will happen (probably) before the next UK GE.

The treaty is (intentionally) vague on the exact requirements, other than it is "likely" to pass. It seems reasonable that means that it must be at least a 50% probability, but it could have a higher (probability) threshold than that. A two-thirds probability threshold could also be justified as "likely".

This gives the UK some flexibility, they can say, it isn't quite likely yet, but not unlimited.
 

Prof Honeydew

Member
Nov 28, 2018
1,394
3,494
NI makes (this) Brexit unworkable. True.

However, a smarter take for a new Labour (non tory) PM would be to appeal for a watered down brexit, closer to a CU brexit.

Only a new, non tory PM could do this.

Not sure if "dumping NI" is a vote winner. Or even a credible position for any PM to take, as the GFA is supposed to call the shots regarding when a Border poll happens.

Bouncing NI into a UI would be viewed badly, internationally, as reckless.


Now, a firm statement to the effect that " we will honour the protocol, and work with the EU to lessen negative effects on NI, whilst ensuring that Ireland's integrity within the customs union, and that of the EU is maintained, we need to be good neighbours. Brexit was our decision. Furthermore, as per the BA/GFA, we reassert that Britain has no selfish interest in NI. It is up to the people of NI to determine their constitutional position."

That would be as far as he should or could go.
Not that a wimp like Starmer would ever be capable of embracing such an approach but, if Labour want to dislodge the Tories, they've got to get into realpolitik. The reason Johnson is hanging in is that he's wiping their faces every time he appeals to the baser instincts of Middle England while Labour's response is to agonise over the fate of transvegan puppies of colour in Afghanistan.

Cutting off the Six Counties mightn't be a winner on its own. You'd get all the poppy-wearing Little Blimps strutting around the British Legion clubs and the war memorials at the moment up in arms over the sun setting over the last remaining outpost of the Empire. But these are the same gobshites who are dictating the Brexit agenda. Put it to them that this waste-of-taxpayers'-hard-earned-money political freak show that is the Six Counties is getting in the way of Global World-beating Britannia again ruling the waves and it leaves them trying to figure out which matters more to them - ridding Merrie England of Johnny Foreigner or hanging on to a far-off dependency of which they know little? Not sure how it would turn out but the least it would do is get them fighting among themselves.

Bouncing the Six Counties into a United Ireland would make Britain look bad???? Umm, I can't ever recall Mighty Blighty worrying about what the rest of the world thought of them, the cradle of democracy, the home of cricket, the BBC and afternoon tea, the land of the Jolly English Gentleman that brought civilisation to the four corners of the earth.

Nor would the rest of the world hold it against a British Government that threw its backing behind a United Ireland. It would be unanimously welcomed by those who care about such matters in America. It would permanently sort out a major pain in the arse for the EU. It would be "About bloody time" in all those parts of the globe that used to be painted red.

And with the Six Counties now effectively becoming an extension to the Republic's economy, it would give its people their say in how that economy is run. And who's going to fight to the death to srop them? The UDA and the UVF? FFS, they couldn't get anyone under 40 to hijack a bus when their week of outrage fizzled out after they'd managed to torch just two buses.

It's a no-brainer, the more you think about it. One needing a bold move to take the problem by the scruff of the neck and sort it out once and for all. Like Helmut Kohl did in Germany in 1989. Or Albert Reynolds did in 1992 when he told all the naysayers where to go with themselves.

Unfortunately, such a move won't come from Starmer. And even if it did, Martin and Varadkar would try everything possible to head off reality intruding on their cosy little bubble. Such is the world we live in.
 

mac tíre

Member
Nov 28, 2018
2,363
3,978
Contae An Dúin
Apr 24, 2020
2,203
2,078
Not that a wimp like Starmer would ever be capable of embracing such an approach but, if Labour want to dislodge the Tories, they've got to get into realpolitik. The reason Johnson is hanging in is that he's wiping their faces every time he appeals to the baser instincts of Middle England while Labour's response is to agonise over the fate of transvegan puppies of colour in Afghanistan.

Cutting off the Six Counties mightn't be a winner on its own. You'd get all the poppy-wearing Little Blimps strutting around the British Legion clubs and the war memorials at the moment up in arms over the sun setting over the last remaining outpost of the Empire. But these are the same gobshites who are dictating the Brexit agenda. Put it to them that this waste-of-taxpayers'-hard-earned-money political freak show that is the Six Counties is getting in the way of Global World-beating Britannia again ruling the waves and it leaves them trying to figure out which matters more to them - ridding Merrie England of Johnny Foreigner or hanging on to a far-off dependency of which they know little? Not sure how it would turn out but the least it would do is get them fighting among themselves.

Bouncing the Six Counties into a United Ireland would make Britain look bad???? Umm, I can't ever recall Mighty Blighty worrying about what the rest of the world thought of them, the cradle of democracy, the home of cricket, the BBC and afternoon tea, the land of the Jolly English Gentleman that brought civilisation to the four corners of the earth.

Nor would the rest of the world hold it against a British Government that threw its backing behind a United Ireland. It would be unanimously welcomed by those who care about such matters in America. It would permanently sort out a major pain in the arse for the EU. It would be "About bloody time" in all those parts of the globe that used to be painted red.

And with the Six Counties now effectively becoming an extension to the Republic's economy, it would give its people their say in how that economy is run. And who's going to fight to the death to srop them? The UDA and the UVF? FFS, they couldn't get anyone under 40 to hijack a bus when their week of outrage fizzled out after they'd managed to torch just two buses.

It's a no-brainer, the more you think about it. One needing a bold move to take the problem by the scruff of the neck and sort it out once and for all. Like Helmut Kohl did in Germany in 1989. Or Albert Reynolds did in 1992 when he told all the naysayers where to go with themselves.

Unfortunately, such a move won't come from Starmer. And even if it did, Martin and Varadkar would try everything possible to head off reality intruding on their cosy little bubble. Such is the world we live in.
If a poll fails, we have to wait 7 years for another? Think that's in the GFA.

Generally, I'm not disagreeing with you.

Challenge is, that if a UI becomes a UK govt objective (nicer than "get rid of NI"), then, the UK govt needs to commit to working out what it will do to "help it along". Now, under the GFA, the UK govt is not supposed to have any selfish interest in NI.

Could it "collaborate with the Irish govt on a whitepaper on Irish Unity, with a view to agreeing its continuing obligations, and transitional agreements necessary after a successful Unity referendum in NI".

I think it could. Considering the shit it rightly got for not planning brexit, actually planning a UI implementation would be hard to argue against.

Unionist apoplexy would be something else, with partitionists down here being similarly vexed.

But we would have to embrace this, even if it accelerated our sluggish roadmap for same.
 

hollandia

Literally knows shit
Staff member
Moderator
Member
If a poll fails, we have to wait 7 years for another? Think that's in the GFA.

Generally, I'm not disagreeing with you.

Challenge is, that if a UI becomes a UK govt objective (nicer than "get rid of NI"), then, the UK govt needs to commit to working out what it will do to "help it along". Now, under the GFA, the UK govt is not supposed to have any selfish interest in NI.

Could it "collaborate with the Irish govt on a whitepaper on Irish Unity, with a view to agreeing its continuing obligations, and transitional agreements necessary after a successful Unity referendum in NI".

I think it could. Considering the shit it rightly got for not planning brexit, actually planning a UI implementation would be hard to argue against.

Unionist apoplexy would be something else, with partitionists down here being similarly vexed.

But we would have to embrace this, even if it accelerated our sluggish roadmap for same.
Minimum of seven years. That said, a first referendum (failed or not) at least forces kildare 's into action.
 
Sep 15, 2021
109
78
Not that a wimp like Starmer would ever be capable of embracing such an approach but, if Labour want to dislodge the Tories, they've got to get into realpolitik. The reason Johnson is hanging in is that he's wiping their faces every time he appeals to the baser instincts of Middle England while Labour's response is to agonise over the fate of transvegan puppies of colour in Afghanistan.

Cutting off the Six Counties mightn't be a winner on its own. You'd get all the poppy-wearing Little Blimps strutting around the British Legion clubs and the war memorials at the moment up in arms over the sun setting over the last remaining outpost of the Empire. But these are the same gobshites who are dictating the Brexit agenda. Put it to them that this waste-of-taxpayers'-hard-earned-money political freak show that is the Six Counties is getting in the way of Global World-beating Britannia again ruling the waves and it leaves them trying to figure out which matters more to them - ridding Merrie England of Johnny Foreigner or hanging on to a far-off dependency of which they know little? Not sure how it would turn out but the least it would do is get them fighting among themselves.

Bouncing the Six Counties into a United Ireland would make Britain look bad???? Umm, I can't ever recall Mighty Blighty worrying about what the rest of the world thought of them, the cradle of democracy, the home of cricket, the BBC and afternoon tea, the land of the Jolly English Gentleman that brought civilisation to the four corners of the earth.

Nor would the rest of the world hold it against a British Government that threw its backing behind a United Ireland. It would be unanimously welcomed by those who care about such matters in America. It would permanently sort out a major pain in the arse for the EU. It would be "About bloody time" in all those parts of the globe that used to be painted red.

And with the Six Counties now effectively becoming an extension to the Republic's economy, it would give its people their say in how that economy is run. And who's going to fight to the death to srop them? The UDA and the UVF? FFS, they couldn't get anyone under 40 to hijack a bus when their week of outrage fizzled out after they'd managed to torch just two buses.

It's a no-brainer, the more you think about it. One needing a bold move to take the problem by the scruff of the neck and sort it out once and for all. Like Helmut Kohl did in Germany in 1989. Or Albert Reynolds did in 1992 when he told all the naysayers where to go with themselves.

Unfortunately, such a move won't come from Starmer. And even if it did, Martin and Varadkar would try everything possible to head off reality intruding on their cosy little bubble. Such is the world we live in.
Corbyn should have told all the Blairites to eff off about having another referendum on Brexit and booted them out of the party if they didn't like it, but he was far too nice. If he had done that he'd be PM now.
 
Apr 24, 2020
2,203
2,078
Corbyn should have told all the Blairites to eff off about having another referendum on Brexit and booted them out of the party if they didn't like it, but he was far too nice. If he had done that he'd be PM now.
No, he wouldn't. Corbyn had too many other issues with the electorate.

And another ref was needed. Because Ref #1 was advisory and the voters manipulated to a huge degree.

And that's before we get into the general sh1tshow of the withdrawal agreement not being planned for , debated in Parliament properly, or negotiated properly, or committed to ....
 

Franzoni

Member
Nov 28, 2018
4,504
5,830
The Tories really are the gift that keeps on taking.


I wouldn't be holding my breath for any apology coming from the current crop of Tories as suggested in the tweet .......

This lot are on a par if not exceeded the Thatcher era Tory party.....
 
Sep 15, 2021
109
78
No, he wouldn't. Corbyn had too many other issues with the electorate.

And another ref was needed. Because Ref #1 was advisory and the voters manipulated to a huge degree.

And that's before we get into the general sh1tshow of the withdrawal agreement not being planned for , debated in Parliament properly, or negotiated properly, or committed to ....
Totally disagree. The election between Johnson and Corbyn was a second referendum on Brexit and the Tories won a stonking majority because they were the only party who would 'get Brexit done'. Even Starmer's accepted this reality.
 
Apr 24, 2020
2,203
2,078
Totally disagree. The election between Johnson and Corbyn was a second referendum on Brexit and the Tories won a stonking majority because they were the only party who would 'get Brexit done'. Even Starmer's accepted this reality.
Corbyn was unelectable, even without Brexit as an issue. But the above is true also.

There should have been a second, actual referendum prior to triggering Brexit. Advisory should mean advisory. That would have been sane and reasonable, but that arguement was utterly lost in the hubris.
 

seanof

Member
Nov 27, 2018
2,896
2,856
Corbyn was unelectable, even without Brexit as an issue. But the above is true also.

There should have been a second, actual referendum prior to triggering Brexit. Advisory should mean advisory. That would have been sane and reasonable, but that arguement was utterly lost in the hubris.
Agree entirely about the second referendum. People voted based on emotion and hope. There should have been a referendum on the actual withdrawal agreement, giving people a chance to make an assessment based on facts.

The ultimate blame for the Brexit fiasco lies with David Cameron.
 
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