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The Irish Economy thread .. ( Income, Cost of living, Retail, Local Biz, FDI etc )

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
‘Alarming levels’ of child poverty linked to low pay - IRISH TIMES

A “persistent problem” with low pay is contributing to “alarming levels” of child poverty, equality think tank Social Justice Ireland (SJI) will warn on Monday.
In general .. do we have a low pay economy?

BUT maybe another Q is .. Is the cost of living here vs wage just too high so as not to leave much wage at end of week/month to generally spend?

Is it both?

A recent article I read said average DISPOSABLE INCOME was around €20k ( Thats about €384 per week ).

Cork workers have less disposable income than national average - EXAMINER

Revealed: County-by-county breakdown of areas with most disposable income - INDO

Disposable income definition by the Gov is NET PAY. You still have to pay your bills, mortgage, child costs, shopping etc etc out of that.

With the costs here and cost of living rising constantly you would not get far with €384 a week, especially with a family?

And - I would need to dig a bit, maybe others could find faster - Because income is so low relative to costs here there is a good bit of financial support being paid out by the Gov/State to working / employed people? ( FIS etc )

I reckon this whole low pay thing might be more prevalent outside Dublin? Or if it is the same case in Dublin its being statistically tempered by the booming IT sector etc? So maybe we have a 2-tier economy?

Out of a wage of that amount ( €20k into hand ) I cannot see anyone having much left by the way of an ACTUAL DISPOSABLE INCOME, by that I mean extra left over to buy things with or spend on a night out. In otherwise supporting local small business in an area.

BY THE WAY - €20,000 EURO converts to about IR£15,700 punts ... ( Just using some of the Punt/Euro calcs .. I realise it just an estimate )
 
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Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
I was talking recently about this to acquaintances and friends. Quite a few of them seriously budget now at a start of a year .. right down to knowing ahead of time, for each week, what they can have in there pockets to spend once all outgoings sorted. Right down to the last Euro. And stick to it.

They dont have a huge amount left at end of each week, if anything, to enjoy so to speak.

If people are budgeting to this level and watching their funds, while good for them ( as in not going mad like pre 08 ) it surely has to have a big ongoing impact on the local economies, small businesses trying to make a living?
 

ted08

Member
Jan 7, 2019
3,233
3,030
My other half has flitted between signing on and low pay evening jobs. The cost of child minding during the day is a barrier to say working down the shop. She's hoping to start a 2 year course in September.
 
Nov 27, 2018
4,975
6,744
I was curious to see how a 20,000 euro net salary compares with other EZ countries.

According to the Eurostate website calculator - yep, this is the average net salary ( 1667 monthly ). The calculator states that 50% of households in Ireland have a higher salary.

But it also shows that only 40% of households across the EZ have a higher salary.

Germany and France are at parity - half of households have a higher salary.

The Netherlands is higher - 60% of households have a higher salary

Spain is (unsurprisingly) far lower - only 20% of households have a higher salary.


So I don't think it can be said that Ireland is a low pay economy as such. That not to say there isn't a problem in Ireland - the issue in Ireland isn't low pay, but a overly high cost of living, which is being discussed on the other thread: ‘Alarming levels’ of child poverty linked to low pay

Ultimately, increasing pay might not solve the problem, a property prices (buying or renting) might increase to match the increased pay, and the trickle down effect of higher property will push prices up for a range of other essentials, as employers increase product prices to cover the increases in pay. :-(
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
I was curious to see how a 20,000 euro net salary compares with other EZ countries.

According to the Eurostate website calculator - yep, this is the average net salary ( 1667 monthly ). The calculator states that 50% of households in Ireland have a higher salary.

.... Ultimately, increasing pay might not solve the problem, a property prices (buying or renting) might increase to match the increased pay, and the trickle down effect of higher property will push prices up for a range of other essentials, as employers increase product prices to cover the increases in pay. :-(
A spiral that might be almost impossible to get out of .. unless via an external economic event hit
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
That's the fear. :-(
However .. as you said AND I did too in my OP :D

It is the cost of living here too. But i did mention maybe its a bit of both?

Because €380 a week here with all the costs taken out of it .. is LOW relative to the Costs of living in Ireland. Lets say it doesnt leave much if any actual disposable income to save or spend as you like on extras. Its very tight ..
 
Nov 27, 2018
4,975
6,744
However .. as you said AND I did too in my OP :D

It is the cost of living here too. But i did mention maybe its a bit of both?

Because €380 a week here with all the costs taken out of it .. is LOW relative to the Costs of living in Ireland. Lets say it doesnt leave much if any actual disposable income to save or spend as you like on extras. Its very tight ..
Yes, it is low relative to the cost of living.

EDIT: I don't live in Ireland, and I would not want to, given how much I'd earn and the cost of living. I"m not particularly rich, but I have a good quality of life. My standard of living would drop significantly if I were to return, to a level where it would be tough for both myself and, far more importantly, for my kids. So repatriating is simply not an option.

But increasing pay itself wouldn't solve the problem, and it will have disastrous problems in terms of being a part of the EU - we might end up pricing ourselves out of that market. I'd say it's one of the the reason for a huge shift to online shopping from firms based outside of Ireland - the price is better as their overheads are less, not just because they're online, but because they are based elsewhere in the EU with a lower cost of living.

There's a lot of factor, but fundamentally I think it's property behind it. Property owners mightn't enjoy the high cost of living in Ireland, but I'd bet that they'd settle for a high cost of living if the value of their property was increasing rather than a lower cost of living and a decrease in the value of their investment.

And I can't see any of the big parties ( SF being an unknown quantity here) taking any steps which will result in a decrease in the value of property in Ireland. Turkeys won't vote for Christmas.
 

cormorant

Member
Apr 3, 2019
500
290
Both. Highish taxes and affordable and comprhensive social servces would sort out a lot of these problems. of course, Fine Gael will never do this.
 
Mar 1, 2019
1,745
1,578
Both. Highish taxes and affordable and comprhensive social servces would sort out a lot of these problems. of course, Fine Gael will never do this.

You think

a) Fine Gael would be allowed to bring in highish taxes and live to fight another day?
b) Fine Gael or any political party, even with an overall majority could bring in comprehensive social services? have you seen the hassle they are having in introducing universal GP care?

There is a reason why the country operates the way it does. Because that is the dreaded 'will of the people'. Irish people don't kick up a fuss about the status quo being a sh!te state of affairs. They go mental when someone tries to introduce changes.

See over 70's medical cards protests, water charge protests and other totally fucking logical and desirable changes that would help shift us ever so slightly towards the utopia that the same people who protest want NOW.

Classic case of the double-think/hypocrisy: Galway City Council one week overwhelmingly supports a motion decrying homelessness and the lack of housing. Following week it refuses to ratify a development with social housing 'because the residents concerns regarding anti-social behaviour need to be listened to'. Politicians know what side their bread is buttered. Homelessness won't bring people out on the streets and giving politicians hell. The possibility of a couple of traveller families in new houses in their estates will.
 

Round tower

Member
Feb 16, 2019
2,579
960
You think

a) Fine Gael would be allowed to bring in highish taxes and live to fight another day?
b) Fine Gael or any political party, even with an overall majority could bring in comprehensive social services? have you seen the hassle they are having in introducing universal GP care?

There is a reason why the country operates the way it does. Because that is the dreaded 'will of the people'. Irish people don't kick up a fuss about the status quo being a sh!te state of affairs. They go mental when someone tries to introduce changes.

See over 70's medical cards protests, water charge protests and other totally fucking logical and desirable changes that would help shift us ever so slightly towards the utopia that the same people who protest want NOW.

Classic case of the double-think/hypocrisy: Galway City Council one week overwhelmingly supports a motion decrying homelessness and the lack of housing. Following week it refuses to ratify a development with social housing 'because the residents concerns regarding anti-social behaviour need to be listened to'. Politicians know what side their bread is buttered. Homelessness won't bring people out on the streets and giving politicians hell. The possibility of a couple of traveller families in new houses in their estates will.
People will say increase taxes and give us better services but don't increase our tax, if u increase taxes it could lead to people on low to middle incomes with children being better off not working.
 
D

Deleted member 146

Guest
EDIT: I don't live in Ireland, and I would not want to, given how much I'd earn and the cost of living. I"m not particularly rich, but I have a good quality of life. My standard of living would drop significantly if I were to return, to a level where it would be tough for both myself and, far more importantly, for my kids. So repatriating is simply not an option.
That's interesting. I am in a similar situation myself. I looked into returning home and a really interesting job presented itself. The salary was a significant increase on my current one but when I factored in all the things I enjoy here my disposable income (or savable income as my mother refers to it) was actually less than I have currently.

I factored in things like healthcare costs, a mean out, bottle of wine, and so on. The big one however, was the proximity of my apartment to both work and the centre of the city and the quality of the accommodation. I simply couldn't afford to replicate that, but then even moving further out was still a significant cost and it soon just looked like a bad move.

Speaking to other ex-pats immigrants they reported a similar issue, and the impact on children was the big issue, particularly the quality of Irish schools and education standards.
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
Both. Highish taxes and affordable and comprehensive social services would sort out a lot of these problems. of course, Fine Gael will never do this.
I think people would live with higher taxes IF the cash raised from that measure were to be spent properly and efficiently and those paying it directly see the benefits from paying them. The payer can properly see where the money is going.

However, at the moment, we pay taxes like motor tax that doesn't go to pay for the roads? I think the initial property tax went into setting up Irish water? I am sure there are many other examples?

Stuff like that gives people no confidence in where their taxes go .. the waste etc.

I imagine if taxes are hiked they would just all end up in the central fund and a considerable amount going toward waste over time.
 

hollandia

Literally knows shit
Staff member
Moderator
Member
There's actually no massive need to radically increase taxes. We're on a par with most modern european countries. What we do need to do is to spend our money better. Streamline the PS. Have more rigorous oversight on capital projects. Ensure that LA's are properly funded - if not, do away with them. Shut down the HSE and start again with something that works. Ensure politicians who waste money are censured, both through things like PAC, and at the ballot box. Start doing fecking things right, rather than pursue vanity projects. Stop farming out stuff to private industry that does not need to be farmed out.
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
There's actually no massive need to radically increase taxes. We're on a par with most modern european countries. What we do need to do is to spend our money better. Streamline the PS. Have more rigorous oversight on capital projects. Ensure that LA's are properly funded - if not, do away with them. Shut down the HSE and start again with something that works. Ensure politicians who waste money are censured, both through things like PAC, and at the ballot box. Start doing fecking things right, rather than pursue vanity projects. Stop farming out stuff to private industry that does not need to be farmed out.
Spot on Hollandia, thats pretty much ( in my round about way ) what i was trying to get at in my previous post. If that were sorted .. then i dont think people would have a huge issue about paying more tax, as long as its used correctly and not wasted.

Accountability and responsibility for one's actions and then Consequences if the former goes skew ways are sadly lacking in the people and organisations that manage the public purse.

The whole FAI thing brought that home to me once more. Likes of an organisation like that apparently not furnishing proper accounts for years AND the likes of the sports council handing them large amounts of TAX PAYERS cash yearly without, seemingly, not auditing the FAI to make sure that money was being used properly etc. BTW will the sports council get it in the neck for this also, I doubt it?
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
Why is Ireland such an expensive place to live? - IRISH TIMES

Why is Ireland such an expensive place to live? The annual review from the National Competitiveness Council – published this week – may focus on the costs of doing business, but it also highlights the high cost of living.

Ireland is the fifth most expensive place to live in the EU, with prices here 13 per cent above the euro area average. We are in line with the Netherlands and Austria, and ahead of big players like France and Germany. Only Scandinavia, with its eye-watering cost of living, and tiny Luxembourg are more costly.
( Paywall )

Cost of Doing Business 2019 - NCC

Cost of Doing Business in Ireland April 2019 PDF Report mentioned above

From page SIX:

Bearing all this in mind, the evidence is clear that Ireland is a high cost economy. In 2017 , Ireland was the 5th most expensive economy in the EU and prices were 13% higher than the EU average. Prices in Ireland are comparable to other jurisdictions that would traditionally be thought of as high cost, such as Japan, the UK and the Netherlands. The evidence also suggests that Dublin is one of the most expensive cities in the EU. In S1 2018, the cost of living in Dublin was 18% more expensive than living in Brussels. This makes Dublin the 5th most expensive capital city in the EU (and on a par with Paris and Helsinki).

On the basis of these observations, the cost profile of Ireland can be described as ‘high cost, slowly increasing’ and in this regard, Ireland finds itself in the company of countries like Iceland, Denmark and Sweden
 
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Kevin Parlon

Member
Feb 15, 2019
417
91
EDIT: I don't live in Ireland, and I would not want to, given how much I'd earn and the cost of living. I"m not particularly rich, but I have a good quality of life. My standard of living would drop significantly if I were to return, to a level where it would be tough for both myself and, far more importantly, for my kids. So repatriating is simply not an option.
Same here. We even went to the extent of house shopping. And whilst our overseas property (to sell) meant we could afford to live very well in a very nice area everything else just didn't stack up. Childcare is seemingly a struggle and difficult to find but it was really tax that was the biggest put-off. I'd be left with about half my gross pay and that's before the eye-watering VAT rates on everything. Then you look at the price of cars, of gas of booze. We just couldn't do it. In fairness to Ireland, also factored in was what was on offer elsewhere. Ireland will always be home, but at this stage I can't see it being Home again.
 

Round tower

Member
Feb 16, 2019
2,579
960
Same here. We even went to the extent of house shopping. And whilst our overseas property (to sell) meant we could afford to live very well in a very nice area everything else just didn't stack up. Childcare is seemingly a struggle and difficult to find but it was really tax that was the biggest put-off. I'd be left with about half my gross pay and that's before the eye-watering VAT rates on everything. Then you look at the price of cars, of gas of booze. We just couldn't do it. In fairness to Ireland, also factored in was what was on offer elsewhere. Ireland will always be home, but at this stage I can't see it being Home again.
Something else say if u abroad can produce that u had aa clean licence and no claims on your car insurnce for so long when u come back looking for car inssurance u are back getting car insurance if u were looking for insurence with claims on your insurence
 
Nov 29, 2018
6,945
6,090
‘Alarming levels’ of child poverty linked to low pay - IRISH TIMES



In general .. do we have a low pay economy?

BUT maybe another Q is .. Is the cost of living here vs wage just too high so as not to leave much wage at end of week/month to generally spend?

Is it both?

A recent article I read said average DISPOSABLE INCOME was around €20k ( Thats about €384 per week ).

Cork workers have less disposable income than national average - EXAMINER

Revealed: County-by-county breakdown of areas with most disposable income - INDO

Disposable income definition by the Gov is NET PAY. You still have to pay your bills, mortgage, child costs, shopping etc etc out of that.

With the costs here and cost of living rising constantly you would not get far with €384 a week, especially with a family?

And - I would need to dig a bit, maybe others could find faster - Because income is so low relative to costs here there is a good bit of financial support being paid out by the Gov/State to working / employed people? ( FIS etc )

I reckon this whole low pay thing might be more prevalent outside Dublin? Or if it is the same case in Dublin its being statistically tempered by the booming IT sector etc? So maybe we have a 2-tier economy?

Out of a wage of that amount ( €20k into hand ) I cannot see anyone having much left by the way of an ACTUAL DISPOSABLE INCOME, by that I mean extra left over to buy things with or spend on a night out. In otherwise supporting local small business in an area.

BY THE WAY - €20,000 EURO converts to about IR£15,700 punts ... ( Just using some of the Punt/Euro calcs .. I realise it just an estimate )
Disposable income is, as you say, what is left after taxes, etc., and all other bills have to paid out of that, leaving little or no discretionary income. Many people seem to confuse disposable income with discretionary income, the majority of workers have little or no discretionary income.
 

Sidewinder

Member
Dec 1, 2018
570
1,121
Wellington, New Zealand
EDIT: I don't live in Ireland, and I would not want to, given how much I'd earn and the cost of living. I"m not particularly rich, but I have a good quality of life. My standard of living would drop significantly if I were to return, to a level where it would be tough for both myself and, far more importantly, for my kids. So repatriating is simply not an option.
At this stage I can't see myself ever moving back to Ireland. Not without massive cultural and political shifts in how things are done. I never really realised just how much stress had built up over decades of tiny idiotic frustrations building up and never being addressed, until I was living somewhere else where, in general, Stuff just Works.

There's a lot of factor, but fundamentally I think it's property behind it. Property owners mightn't enjoy the high cost of living in Ireland, but I'd bet that they'd settle for a high cost of living if the value of their property was increasing rather than a lower cost of living and a decrease in the value of their investment.
Property is of course the #1 elephant in this particular room. But it itself is largely a reflection of more deep-rooted cultural problems. Irish people simply have toxic notions about money and social status that drives most of the problems.

One of the worst of these is HighPricesGood: Irish people, in marked contrast to most Europeans, are in no way thrifty or sensible with money. They still have this peasant notion of wealth, where paying ridiculously over the odds for something is seen as a badge of social superiority and a way to flout how rich and successful you are to the neighbours. Far too many Irish people will boast about how they paid three grand for a designer-label widget, when entirely equivalent no-brand widgets cos 25c in Aldi (speaking of, remember the insane snobbery against Aldi and Lidl when they first set up in Ireland?). They will actively seek out the overpriced tat and be proud of themselves for buying it. You'd never see a German doing that.

Combine that with the constant attempts to get one over on the neighbours, the constant angling towards a perceived higher social status, the constant chatter/boasting about job titles and salaries, and the generally opaque nature of Irish speech where nobody ever says precisely what they mean. Never mind the weird thing where something needs fixed, so everyone will gather round and have a three-week discussion before proceeding to exhaust all the ridiculously convoluted half-arsed options, before finally and with great reluctance begrudgingly settling on what was the only obvious fncking solution from the very beginning.

Used to drive me mental :p
 

supernova

Member
Feb 18, 2019
162
54
At this stage I can't see myself ever moving back to Ireland. Not without massive cultural and political shifts in how things are done. I never really realised just how much stress had built up over decades of tiny idiotic frustrations building up and never being addressed, until I was living somewhere else where, in general, Stuff just Works.



Property is of course the #1 elephant in this particular room. But it itself is largely a reflection of more deep-rooted cultural problems. Irish people simply have toxic notions about money and social status that drives most of the problems.

One of the worst of these is HighPricesGood: Irish people, in marked contrast to most Europeans, are in no way thrifty or sensible with money. They still have this peasant notion of wealth, where paying ridiculously over the odds for something is seen as a badge of social superiority and a way to flout how rich and successful you are to the neighbours. Far too many Irish people will boast about how they paid three grand for a designer-label widget, when entirely equivalent no-brand widgets cos 25c in Aldi (speaking of, remember the insane snobbery against Aldi and Lidl when they first set up in Ireland?). They will actively seek out the overpriced tat and be proud of themselves for buying it. You'd never see a German doing that.

Combine that with the constant attempts to get one over on the neighbours, the constant angling towards a perceived higher social status, the constant chatter/boasting about job titles and salaries, and the generally opaque nature of Irish speech where nobody ever says precisely what they mean. Never mind the weird thing where something needs fixed, so everyone will gather round and have a three-week discussion before proceeding to exhaust all the ridiculously convoluted half-arsed options, before finally and with great reluctance begrudgingly settling on what was the only obvious fncking solution from the very beginning.

Used to drive me mental :p
Outside of fantasy Ireland, frantically embraced by exiles mysteriously seeking the online company of her citizens, Aldi and Lidl continue to thrive, even in the most exclusive and wealthiest areas of the State.
 
D

Deleted member 146

Guest
At this stage I can't see myself ever moving back to Ireland. Not without massive cultural and political shifts in how things are done. I never really realised just how much stress had built up over decades of tiny idiotic frustrations building up and never being addressed, until I was living somewhere else where, in general, Stuff just Works.



Property is of course the #1 elephant in this particular room. But it itself is largely a reflection of more deep-rooted cultural problems. Irish people simply have toxic notions about money and social status that drives most of the problems.

One of the worst of these is HighPricesGood: Irish people, in marked contrast to most Europeans, are in no way thrifty or sensible with money. They still have this peasant notion of wealth, where paying ridiculously over the odds for something is seen as a badge of social superiority and a way to flout how rich and successful you are to the neighbours. Far too many Irish people will boast about how they paid three grand for a designer-label widget, when entirely equivalent no-brand widgets cos 25c in Aldi (speaking of, remember the insane snobbery against Aldi and Lidl when they first set up in Ireland?). They will actively seek out the overpriced tat and be proud of themselves for buying it. You'd never see a German doing that.

Combine that with the constant attempts to get one over on the neighbours, the constant angling towards a perceived higher social status, the constant chatter/boasting about job titles and salaries, and the generally opaque nature of Irish speech where nobody ever says precisely what they mean. Never mind the weird thing where something needs fixed, so everyone will gather round and have a three-week discussion before proceeding to exhaust all the ridiculously convoluted half-arsed options, before finally and with great reluctance begrudgingly settling on what was the only obvious fncking solution from the very beginning.

Used to drive me mental :p
Maybe you just spent your time in the company of c**ts.
 

Gatsbygirl20

Member
Dec 2, 2018
9,999
14,131
Mortgage (or rent) and childcare nowadays will eat up the income of young couples in the struggling years (and we all went through the struggling years--huge interest rates on mortgages in the 80s and savage income tax)

Another issue--but perhaps for another thread--is the way "work" is defined

Work used to be a full time job, Monday to Friday
If you couldn't hack that, well, too bad. You had no job

Then the idea of job-sharing came in, then "family friendly" hours, then part time, then not working Friday or Monday...

This sounded great in the beginning and was embraced by unions etc. The dreaded word " flexibility"..

Then you had Family Income Supplement where the Government topped up wages

Now, nearly everyone I know working in the private sector is working a 3 day week or a 2 day week, or a few hours here and there

These are not young hard-pressed couples with small kids. They are middle aged with grown up kids

They don't want to work full time. They want a "work life balance". Then those who do want to work full time are being asked to be "flexible" because that is the new normal

As a result jobs are becoming very casualised and an awful lot of people are in redeipt of government money although they are registered as "employed"
 

Kongming

Member
Mar 13, 2019
3,799
2,392
Mortgage (or rent) and childcare nowadays will eat up the income of young couples in the struggling years (and we all went through the struggling years--huge interest rates on mortgages in the 80s and savage income tax)

Another issue--but perhaps for another thread--is the way "work" is defined

Work used to be a full time job, Monday to Friday
If you couldn't hack that, well, too bad. You had no job

Then the idea of job-sharing came in, then "family friendly" hours, then part time, then not working Friday or Monday...

This sounded great in the beginning and was embraced by unions etc. The dreaded word " flexibility"..

Then you had Family Income Supplement where the Government topped up wages

Now, nearly everyone I know working in the private sector is working a 3 day week or a 2 day week, or a few hours here and there

These are not young hard-pressed couples with small kids. They are middle aged with grown up kids

They don't want to work full time. They want a "work life balance". Then those who do want to work full time are being asked to be "flexible" because that is the new normal

As a result jobs are becoming very casualised and an awful lot of people are in redeipt of government money although they are registered as "employed"
Sound s like a recipe for disaster. If the government pulls back that supplement, they'll be thrown out at the following election.

I have no issue with flex-time. Being an early bird, I preferred working 6-2:30, and if I wanted a long weekend, I'd go 6-4:30 to make up the time. Never in my working life has (nor would I expect) the government to step in and top up my paycheck.
 

cormorant

Member
Apr 3, 2019
500
290
I think people would live with higher taxes IF the cash raised from that measure were to be spent properly and efficiently and those paying it directly see the benefits from paying them. The payer can properly see where the money is going.

However, at the moment, we pay taxes like motor tax that doesn't go to pay for the roads? I think the initial property tax went into setting up Irish water? I am sure there are many other examples?

Stuff like that gives people no confidence in where their taxes go .. the waste etc.

I imagine if taxes are hiked they would just all end up in the central fund and a considerable amount going toward waste over time.
Indeed. there needs to be reform in both areas: taxation and the provision of services.
 

cormorant

Member
Apr 3, 2019
500
290
You think

a) Fine Gael would be allowed to bring in highish taxes and live to fight another day?
b) Fine Gael or any political party, even with an overall majority could bring in comprehensive social services? have you seen the hassle they are having in introducing universal GP care?

There is a reason why the country operates the way it does. Because that is the dreaded 'will of the people'. Irish people don't kick up a fuss about the status quo being a sh!te state of affairs. They go mental when someone tries to introduce changes.

See over 70's medical cards protests, water charge protests and other totally fucking logical and desirable changes that would help shift us ever so slightly towards the utopia that the same people who protest want NOW.

Classic case of the double-think/hypocrisy: Galway City Council one week overwhelmingly supports a motion decrying homelessness and the lack of housing. Following week it refuses to ratify a development with social housing 'because the residents concerns regarding anti-social behaviour need to be listened to'. Politicians know what side their bread is buttered. Homelessness won't bring people out on the streets and giving politicians hell. The possibility of a couple of traveller families in new houses in their estates will.
Maybe you're right, but FG are pretty much hellbent on fixing the property wealth gap and ringfencing tax and spending into wealthy areas with their latest attempt to allow LA's to spend the income they raise. So they are going in precisely the opposite direction.
 

Franzoni

Member
Nov 28, 2018
4,504
5,830
I've seen this topic raised here and elsewhere over the years and it's difficult to know where to start or what the solution is if any.........

IMO a big part of the problem is there seems to be a level of greed and materialism that has manifested itself lot of people over the last twenty years or so that appears to have gotten worse over time and in some quarters that there seems to be a belief that we are back on track from the last time and if you can't keep up well fook ye.... ....

As i said i don't know any easy answer to sorting this but i do know if we don't sort this attitude in society that the current mantra of 'the Devil take the hindmost' isn't a long term sustainable solution.... look at Brexit and some of it's root causes........
 
Mar 1, 2019
1,745
1,578
Maybe you're right, but FG are pretty much hellbent on fixing the property wealth gap and ringfencing tax and spending into wealthy areas with their latest attempt to allow LA's to spend the income they raise. So they are going in precisely the opposite direction.
Total bollocks. a) 20% of LPT collected is redistributed in an equalisation fund resulting in... b) South Dublin €73 per capita allocated from LPT, Dublin City €94. And poor Donegal? €157 per capita. FG looking after a SF dominated councils? Nonsense.

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/2018.09.30_final_2019_lpt_allocations.pdf
 

Kongming

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cormorant

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Robutnua

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Faced with crippling mortgages, high rents, or insecure and low-paying jobs, many of the parents are living ‘hand to mouth’ every week and month. They hate to admit it publicly, but they confide in the coaches, privately, that they simply cannot afford new jerseys, helmets, or hurls.

An unexpected expense of €60 or €70 is simply beyond their means. And this is in a relatively affluent rural parish, just outside one of Ireland’s major cities.
But it has left my friend and the other coaches in shock.

In this “booming” Ireland, with such a low unemployment rate, how come so many people have so little money to spend every month?

How come an expense of €60 could cause a family emergency? Or force parents to withdraw their children from participating in the sport they love?

It’s a theme which seems to be popping up more and more. If this country really is in "recovery" how come so many people I meet every day are struggling to survive?
Something I have observed also and a Q I have been asking but seems to be very unpopular to say it. SSSH or by saying it you might make it real!
 
Nov 27, 2018
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Something I have observed also and a Q I have been asking but seems to be very unpopular to say it. SSSH or by saying it you might make it real!
I think you've hit the nail on the head, at least for the escalation of the problem; the shame and stigma of not being able to keep your head above water.

It's not unique to Ireland, but it is very much part of the culture, whether about finances or meats or physical health; the compulsion to not let the neighbours know about your troubles.

Ireland is still the kind of place where how the outside of where you live is more important than the inside. I never realised what an odd mentality this was until I lived in other countries; you live in your home, so the inside really should be than the outside.

Worrying about what other people think of you shouldn't always be the priority.
 

Robutnua

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I think you've hit the nail on the head, at least for the escalation of the problem; the shame and stigma of not being able to keep your head above water.

It's not unique to Ireland, but it is very much part of the culture, whether about finances or meats or physical health; the compulsion to not let the neighbours know about your troubles.

Ireland is still the kind of place where how the outside of where you live is more important than the inside. I never realised what an odd mentality this was until I lived in other countries; you live in your home, so the inside really should be than the outside.

Worrying about what other people think of you shouldn't always be the priority.
Indeed ..

But the greater point is in itself the big Q .. Why with an alleged Booming economy do we have many of us still without much if anything at all left at the end of a month .. no gravy so to speak?

This has a huge real impact on the local economy of small biz etc .. no discretionary spend hits hardest in this economy.

Ireland two tier economy - FDI Corporate and then Local small biz. Former absolutely coining it with little or no tax burden, latter not so great with much of the tax burden.

And all across the country a squeezed middle, the JAMs ( Just About Managing ) and even the just about is getting more difficult it seems ..
 

Gatsbygirl20

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Indeed ..

But the greater point is in itself the big Q .. Why with an alleged Booming economy do we have many of us still without much if anything at all left at the end of a month .. no gravy so to speak?

This has a huge real impact on the local economy of small biz etc .. no discretionary spend hits hardest in this economy.

Ireland two tier economy - FDI Corporate and then Local small biz. Former absolutely coining it with little or no tax burden, latter not so great with much of the tax burden.

And all across the country a squeezed middle, the JAMs ( Just About Managing ) and even the just about is getting more difficult it seems ..

I recall at the time of the crash, the mantra in the media and sites like this was "We have to make ourselves more competitive" "Wages have to be brought to realistic levels" "We're paying ourselves too much"


Pay people less. That seemed to be the thing

It was the approved orthodoxy

It appears now that we have achieved that.
 

Robutnua

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I recall at the time of the crash, the mantra in the media and sites like this was "We have to make ourselves more competitive" "Wages have to be brought to realistic levels" "We're paying ourselves too much"


Pay people less. That seemed to be the thing

It was the approved orthodoxy

It appears now that we have achieved that.
Yip .. but to make it any way equitable you would also have to keep a lid on rising cost of living?

It seems now we have a high cost of living but low wage economy for many/most? Thats unsustainable
 

Gatsbygirl20

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Yip .. but to make it any way equitable you would also have to keep a lid on rising cost of living?

It seems now we have a high cost of living but low wage economy for many/most? Thats unsustainable
Life under the prevailing economic model is red in tooth and claw, dog-eat-dog

Everyone making out like bandits, if they can get away with it.

For some reason wage-earners allowed themselves to be pursuaded to opt out of this self-interested banditry

They were told that their wage demands were "unsustainable". They were over-heating the economy with their selfishness.
If their wages were brought down to "realistic" "more competitive" levels then the cost of living would fall too, and everything would be hunky dory

So the poor suckers bought into that narrative

But nobody else did

Vultures and banks and owners of multiple apartment buildings and buy to lets, and insurance companies etc..... all continued to make out like bandits, screwing everyone to the wall who could be screwed.... no worries there about "unsustainable" demands or "overheating" the economy

So workers on the new "realistic" wages and insecure and short-term "more flexible" contracts found themselves unable to afford a babysitter at the end of the month or plan a holiday, or put money aside for a sudden unexpected financial emergency, by the time they paid rapacious rents and mortgages and childcare, etc
 
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Nov 27, 2018
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The main problem lies in the cost of living in Ireland. Nearly everything (cell phone charges excepted - great compared to Canada) seems to cost more than it should. I gaze in wonderment at my visa bills after an Irish holiday and I’m not renting a house or paying for child care.
 

danger here

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I'm ten years away now and certainly notice the price difference when I'm home. In Germany, things are also not super cheap at times (particularly footwear, clothing, electronics brands ect) but you generally get far better value for money. Our local Italian restaurant around the corner would be fairly high end, it's a bit off the beaten track but excellent quality. Yet a la carte, with antipasti, two mains with fresh salmon or a steak ect, drinks for two, wine ect and a tip for the excellent waiter and still change left over from €35 or €40 and a fully belly. I wouldn't even try that in Dublin.

As someone who knows (most of) the places to go to eat or drink a bit cheaper, it's still always shocking to fly in around 2 pm and be €100 emptier a few hours later after 4-5 pints a shared taxi and a chinese takeaway. Belfast also seems to have got crazily expensive in the last few years.
 

Robutnua

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Ireland 10th most expensive in the World to live in, 3rd most expensive in the EU it seems ..

Regardless though, no matter how you cut it .. We are well up there
 
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