• New Home.

    Hey all, just a little update.

    We have moved servers and as a result, we are now under a new URL and a new name, we are now Irishpolitics.net. Please change your bookmarks and update how you get to this site.

    Our new URL is

    www.irishpolitics.net

    The old URL will become obsolete over the coming week.

    We will also be upgrading the site software to the latest version but this will be done over the coming weeks, once everyone is comfortable with the new URL.

    Sorry for any inconvenience.

    Colm
  • Important Information regarding posting about Covid 19 Click Here

The Middle East thread .. ( At mo - AFGHANISTAN - Taliban watch )

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260



Regardless of your religious beliefs or not .. surely a Pretty historic few days in IRAQ with the Popes visit. Finishes up today.

Im just posting this here to mark a historic moment, religion aside. I think it is the first papal visit to Iraq, ever.

( Mods - decided to start a middle east thread rather than one for each country in the middle east. I did start an IRAN thread a while back, by all means delete it OR join it to this one as the main thread for all things middle east if you wish )
 
Last edited:

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
With ref to my thought also .. is this irresponsible now?

The visit comes as Iraq is seeing a new spike in coronavirus infections, with most new cases traced to the highly contagious variant first identified in Britain. The 84-year-old pope, the Vatican delegation and travelling media have been vaccinated, but most Iraqis have not.

The Vatican and Iraqi authorities have downplayed the threat of the virus and insisted that social distancing, crowd control and other health care measures will be enforced.


( As an aside .. I notice the comments under this journal article are pretty venomous as usual toward the Pope and the Catholic church. I realise the context of this and the why .. but I wonder will we ever again be able to just post something like this without it getting into a fight over religion and hate toward the catholic church, the pope here. A topic for another thread )
 
Last edited:

midlander12

Member
Dec 4, 2018
3,794
2,558
With ref to my thought also .. is this irresponsible now?

The visit comes as Iraq is seeing a new spike in coronavirus infections, with most new cases traced to the highly contagious variant first identified in Britain. The 84-year-old pope, the Vatican delegation and travelling media have been vaccinated, but most Iraqis have not.

The Vatican and Iraqi authorities have downplayed the threat of the virus and insisted that social distancing, crowd control and other health care measures will be enforced.


( As an aside .. I notice the comments under this journal article are pretty venomous as usual toward the Pope and the Catholic church. I realise the context of this and the why .. but I wonder will we ever again be able to just post something like this without it getting into a fight over religion and hate toward the catholic church, the pope here. A topic for another thread )
It's a question of which is the lesser evil, analogous to the Black Lives Matter protests and the celebrations after Trump's defeat. I think this visit has already been postponed at least once due to Covid. On the other hand it will hopefully give some comfort to Middle Eastern Christians who have been horribly persecuted for decades now, a subject which attracts little attention in the West where they would be seen as an unfashionable cause among 'progressive' types.

I remember over on p.ie I tried to stir up some interest in the fate of Pakistani Christians after a particularly horrendous double lynching and a long-running blasphemy case in which a Christian woman was kept on Death Row for years. I got exactly zero replies. At the same time a thread there on Gaza had reached 11,000 posts.
 

Cruimh

Rhubarb fetishist and proud of it!
Staff member
Moderator
Member
Nov 28, 2018
18,714
12,401
Under the blue skies
www.xxx-rhubarb.com
With ref to my thought also .. is this irresponsible now?

The visit comes as Iraq is seeing a new spike in coronavirus infections, with most new cases traced to the highly contagious variant first identified in Britain. The 84-year-old pope, the Vatican delegation and travelling media have been vaccinated, but most Iraqis have not.

The Vatican and Iraqi authorities have downplayed the threat of the virus and insisted that social distancing, crowd control and other health care measures will be enforced.


( As an aside .. I notice the comments under this journal article are pretty venomous as usual toward the Pope and the Catholic church. I realise the context of this and the why .. but I wonder will we ever again be able to just post something like this without it getting into a fight over religion and hate toward the catholic church, the pope here. A topic for another thread )
Not much sign of social distancing in the scenes from Erbil Stadium and masking seems largely absent.

Strikes me as selfish snd irresponsible
 

seanof

Member
Nov 27, 2018
2,896
2,856
It's a question of which is the lesser evil, analogous to the Black Lives Matter protests and the celebrations after Trump's defeat. I think this visit has already been postponed at least once due to Covid. On the other hand it will hopefully give some comfort to Middle Eastern Christians who have been horribly persecuted for decades now, a subject which attracts little attention in the West where they would be seen as an unfashionable cause among 'progressive' types.

I remember over on p.ie I tried to stir up some interest in the fate of Pakistani Christians after a particularly horrendous double lynching and a long-running blasphemy case in which a Christian woman was kept on Death Row for years. I got exactly zero replies. At the same time a thread there on Gaza had reached 11,000 posts.
I agree with you on this, while strongly supporting the Palestinian cause.
 

seanof

Member
Nov 27, 2018
2,896
2,856
Well I support them too, but that's completely beside the point of course. Abuse of human rights in the Middle East is by no means a US or Israeli monopoly.
Beside the point, perhaps but worth pointing out in case of misinterpretation.
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260


Could this be enough to escalate things tween these 2? Expect retaliation from Israel incoming I imagine
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
@midlander12 .. exactly the confusion I had a while back and rather than a thread for each country I started this more all encompassing generic one:

Hard to know where to put this but I understand this thread is more a regional one rather than specifically 'Iranian'.

It looks like Kabul may be in Taliban hands before the month is out, if not earlier. Quite a staggering collapse, after the Pentagon spent €88 billion (according to Politico today) supposedly building up the Afghan govt forces. It reminds me of the last few weeks of the Vietnam War, when provincial capitals fell like ninepins to the VC - Hue, Da Nang, Nha Trang, and finally Saigon. But that took a few weeks - this has been happening in days, even hours.
Even for those of us who were deeply sceptical of the US involvement, and thought Biden was right to pull out, this is desperately depressing.

 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
@midlander12 Was listening to CNN yesterday about this and the speed of the Taliban take over. He said that in many of the cases of these cities it was most likely a negotiated takeover where Taliban might threaten but the city "councils" would pretty much relent, so no huge bloodshed or drawn out fighting in most cases. Hence things look speedy.

He said the Afghan army is something like 3 or 4 times the size of the Taliban forces BUT may of those in the army on the ground are demoralized with US leaving and pretty much saying fck it and not bothering fighting.

Of course look at the last century or so of conflict in Afghanistan .. a veritable graveyard for invading armies, no one ever succeeded.
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
Seems like this thing of taking kabul 90 days to fall IS

Fake news .. its happening right now. Taliban are at the gates so to speak.

Interesting times ahead. But you know, maybe for the better? "The west" no longer there for some will be a good thing


Comical Ali comes to mind here
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
Sky

"An Afghan official has told the Associated Press that Taliban negotiators are heading to the presidential palace to prepare for a "transfer" of power"

Seems already in palace now
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
Sky

"An Afghan official has told the Associated Press that Taliban negotiators are heading to the presidential palace to prepare for a "transfer" of power"

Seems already in palace now
At this time in the crazy history of Afghanistan maybe this is whats needed. The west has essentially failed over last century in this region so maybe a Taliban gov and rule is the only thing that might work.

OK we do have the issue with extremist groups and potential of Isis etc but the alternative is permanent western occupation which really is not a longterm solution no matter what
 

midlander12

Member
Dec 4, 2018
3,794
2,558
At this time in the crazy history of Afghanistan maybe this is whats needed. The west has essentially failed over last century in this region so maybe a Taliban gov and rule is the only thing that might work.

OK we do have the issue with extremist groups and potential of Isis etc but the alternative is permanent western occupation which really is not a longterm solution no matter what
No whatever it is, it's not what's 'needed'. No doubt the various foreign interventions (let's not forget the Russians, BTW) have made things dramatically worse. But the Taliban were and will be a new level in terms of human rights abuses, femicide, etc.

The American involvement has of course been an utter disaster - that utter clown Bush continues to rattle around like the ghost of Ramadans past.
 

midlander12

Member
Dec 4, 2018
3,794
2,558
@midlander12 Was listening to CNN yesterday about this and the speed of the Taliban take over. He said that in many of the cases of these cities it was most likely a negotiated takeover where Taliban might threaten but the city "councils" would pretty much relent, so no huge bloodshed or drawn out fighting in most cases. Hence things look speedy.

He said the Afghan army is something like 3 or 4 times the size of the Taliban forces BUT may of those in the army on the ground are demoralized with US leaving and pretty much saying fck it and not bothering fighting.

Of course look at the last century or so of conflict in Afghanistan .. a veritable graveyard for invading armies, no one ever succeeded.
Thanks for moving my post to a more appropriate thread. There's a very good article on Politico about the Pentagon and the Afghan 'army' - I'll dig it out later.
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
No whatever it is, it's not what's 'needed'. No doubt the various foreign interventions (let's not forget the Russians, BTW) have made things dramatically worse. But the Taliban were and will be a new level in terms of human rights abuses, femicide, etc.

The American involvement has of course been an utter disaster - that utter clown Bush continues to rattle around like the ghost of Ramadans past.
I hear all the hand wringing going on about USA and UK failure in Afghanistan and letting the country down etc as if there is a way to democratize and make the country self governable etc. My opinion where Afghanistan is concerned is no its not possible, needs local buyin ( which obviously over 20 years was not there ) and the west trying to impose our idea of "Democracy" on such a country is doomed to fail. Lots of errors made going back to 90s and earlier. And lets not forget the likes of bin laden, Al Queida, essentially Isis etc were created by the CIA/USA blowback from the 80s with proxy war against Russia in Afghanistan.
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
On SKY just there .. a skirmish thats now apparently over at Kabul airport tween Taliban and UK forces
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
SKY - " Most in Kabul ( inc businesses ) and Afghanistan in general had no faith in the current gov and saw it as corrupt anyway" Concluded with - so basically just replacing one with another
 

Shaadi

Member
Feb 16, 2019
2,594
2,890
No whatever it is, it's not what's 'needed'. No doubt the various foreign interventions (let's not forget the Russians, BTW) have made things dramatically worse. But the Taliban were and will be a new level in terms of human rights abuses, femicide, etc.

The American involvement has of course been an utter disaster - that utter clown Bush continues to rattle around like the ghost of Ramadans past.
Reagan chased the Russian out and now his mujahideen are chasing the Americans out.

It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic for the people of Afghanistan. Constant war, chaos and death for 40 years at least and now they have been deserted again.
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
SKY -

"An Afghan official says troops have surrendered Bagram air base to the Taliban which is home to a prison housing 5,000 inmates "

Shades of Iraq back in those heady days if i remember correct re a prison there
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
The Yanks have bankrolled Pakistan for years .....
Yip .. lots of fingers in this pie. Just watched BBC World and had a piece on about China involvement since 2015 negotiating with Taliban. China has a small border with Afghanistan. They are also willing to recognise that Taliban gov

Things now have moved to Doha where the Taliban gov delegation are and the current Afghanistan gov have flown too
 
Last edited:

cumulonimbus

Member
Mar 16, 2019
265
129
I hear all the hand wringing going on about USA and UK failure in Afghanistan and letting the country down etc as if there is a way to democratize and make the country self governable etc. My opinion where Afghanistan is concerned is no its not possible, needs local buyin ( which obviously over 20 years was not there ) and the west trying to impose our idea of "Democracy" on such a country is doomed to fail. Lots of errors made going back to 90s and earlier. And lets not forget the likes of bin laden, Al Queida, essentially Isis etc were created by the CIA/USA blowback from the 80s with proxy war against Russia in Afghanistan.

It depends of course on what kind of governance results from the Taliban taking over and I would suspect many may well be supportive of them. However Afghanistan is still a diverse society and what the Taliban might offer won't suit everyone I would think unless a person wanted to live in a very certain type of religiously conservative society which already exists somewhat similarly say in neighboring countries like Pakistan of Iran.
 

Franzoni

Member
Nov 28, 2018
4,504
5,830
Will he be OK I wonder ...

I doubt the Taliban will keep their word and there is no pressure or angle that can be applied on them to do so ... the big problem and the worst case scenario facing Western society is the Taliban itself isn't one unit with a central command structure that can control all the factions and could itself split apart over the next few months according to various articles i've seen and read..........

Possibly the Pakistani intel services might be able to excert some influence or some pressure for another sizeable donation of US dollars but with the poppy fields amd the drug money that will be going around i'd say the place is ripe for anarchy....
 

Robutnua

Member
Nov 28, 2018
13,848
6,260
Taliban militants who up to now were ordered not enter Kabul have been instructed to do because the official police have abandoned there posts and there is wide spread looting. So entering Kabul to assume policing duties.
 

Franzoni

Member
Nov 28, 2018
4,504
5,830
Taliban militants who up to now were ordered not enter Kabul have been instructed to do because the official police have abandoned there posts and there is wide spread looting. So entering Kabul to assume policing duties.

I'd imagine the policemen and women have done a burner because they don't want to be taken out and murdered outside their home in front of their families because they previously worked for the government.........
 
Top Bottom