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The UK, a failed state?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 146
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Deleted member 146

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As the days go on I am now firmly of the opinion that the UK is now a failed state.

Why do I think this? Well there are a number of issues which have threads of their own such as Brexit, the drive for Scottish independence, the fracturing of British Politics, and much much more.

There's also the social changes the country is going through, much of it driven by the issues above:
And now the attack on free speech. This is perhaps the most dangerous one.

It began with Gavin Williamson, the UK's Education Secretary, who proposed appointing a “free speech champion” to fight “unacceptable silencing and censoring” in higher education. Dubbed the "war on Woke". Williamson insisted that “free speech underpins our democratic society”.

Often times the supposed no-platforming/silencing/censoring etc. is not done by universities themselves but by Student Unions, though the two are often deliberately conflated. The proposal will also soecifically target Student Unions, which will be required to take steps to ensure free speech for their members as well as visiting speakers. The government is also looking at bringing student unions, which are currently governed by the Charity Commission, under OfS control.

The proposals have, as one might expect, come under intense criticism by pretty much everyone associated with Higher Education, with the accusation being that the Government is fighting Phantom issues in place of actually doing anything useful or positive for higher education. On that point, I mentioned in another thread the hollowing out research funding in the UK.

But then things take a weird turn. With Williamson pledging to supposedly protect free speech enter the most loathsome Home Secretary the country has ever seen, Pritti Patel.

Earlier this week the Home Office published the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill. In it is a specific section on the policing of protests, which has been revised and the revisions effectively eliminate protests in the UK. That in itself is something incredible, but what is even more distasteful is how it is being done - by literally silencing protestors through amendments to Sections 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act 1986 [Pg 56 of the above-linked document].


What's more, they have also removed the clause where a protector must “knowingly” have failed to comply with police restrictions on protests:

in the case of a public procession in England and Wales, at the time the person fails to comply with the condition the person knows or ought to know that the condition has been imposed;
It remains in Scotland:
in the case of a public procession in Scotland, the person knowingly fails to comply with the condition.
In the case of Scotland if a protestor has not complied with police direction in order for them to be prosecuted it must be demonstrated that they knowingly opted to ignore it, where as in England and Wales the defense of not knowingly failing to comply is now removed.

But the bill goes beyond large-scale protests, “assemblies” and “processions” which have a legal description, to imposing conditions on one-person protests [Pg 64].

(1) Subsection (2) applies if the senior police officer, having regard to the time or place at which and the circumstances in which any one-person protest in England and Wales is being carried on or is intended to be carried on, reasonably believes—
(a) that the noise generated by the person carrying on the protest may result in serious disruption to the activities of an organisation which are carried on in the vicinity of the protest, or
(b) that—
(i) the noise generated by the person carrying on the protest may have a relevant impact on persons in the vicinity of the protest, and
(ii) that impact may be significant.
This is largely believed to be a direct response to Brexit protestor Steve Bray.

These are extraordinarily contradictory moves by Conservatives and another nail in the coffin of the UK as a functioning democracy.
 
Apr 24, 2020
2,203
2,078
I'm prejudiced against the place, but I like most English I meet. And I mean that I've never felt relaxed there. I can feel relaxed in most bits of Europe I've visited. But the UK? Nope. There is something "brutal" about the place.

Maybe it is the callousness of Tory govt, In my lifetime, Blair and Brown were a blip. I am too young to remember pre-Thatcher Britain.

Boris-kakistocracy seems to have clung to the most base and cruel aspects of tory-ism. That tone leaves no society in tact.

It is close to a failed state. Maybe inertia can carry it to a reformed Labour govt, with some semblance of decency.
 

Derryman

Member
Feb 17, 2019
6,300
7,141
Derry
I'm prejudiced against the place, but I like most English I meet. And I mean that I've never felt relaxed there. I can feel relaxed in most bits of Europe I've visited. But the UK? Nope. There is something "brutal" about the place.

Maybe it is the callousness of Tory govt, In my lifetime, Blair and Brown were a blip. I am too young to remember pre-Thatcher Britain.

Boris-kakistocracy seems to have clung to the most base and cruel aspects of tory-ism. That tone leaves no society in tact.

It is close to a failed state. Maybe inertia can carry it to a reformed Labour govt, with some semblance of decency.
Need to find a labour party first.
 

Cruimh

Rhubarb fetishist and proud of it!
Staff member
Moderator
Member
Nov 28, 2018
18,714
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Under the blue skies
www.xxx-rhubarb.com
As the days go on I am now firmly of the opinion that the UK is now a failed state.

Why do I think this? Well there are a number of issues which have threads of their own such as Brexit, the drive for Scottish independence, the fracturing of British Politics, and much much more.

There's also the social changes the country is going through, much of it driven by the issues above:
And now the attack on free speech. This is perhaps the most dangerous one.

It began with Gavin Williamson, the UK's Education Secretary, who proposed appointing a “free speech champion” to fight “unacceptable silencing and censoring” in higher education. Dubbed the "war on Woke". Williamson insisted that “free speech underpins our democratic society”.

Often times the supposed no-platforming/silencing/censoring etc. is not done by universities themselves but by Student Unions, though the two are often deliberately conflated. The proposal will also soecifically target Student Unions, which will be required to take steps to ensure free speech for their members as well as visiting speakers. The government is also looking at bringing student unions, which are currently governed by the Charity Commission, under OfS control.

The proposals have, as one might expect, come under intense criticism by pretty much everyone associated with Higher Education, with the accusation being that the Government is fighting Phantom issues in place of actually doing anything useful or positive for higher education. On that point, I mentioned in another thread the hollowing out research funding in the UK.

But then things take a weird turn. With Williamson pledging to supposedly protect free speech enter the most loathsome Home Secretary the country has ever seen, Pritti Patel.

Earlier this week the Home Office published the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill. In it is a specific section on the policing of protests, which has been revised and the revisions effectively eliminate protests in the UK. That in itself is something incredible, but what is even more distasteful is how it is being done - by literally silencing protestors through amendments to Sections 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act 1986 [Pg 56 of the above-linked document].


What's more, they have also removed the clause where a protector must “knowingly” have failed to comply with police restrictions on protests:


It remains in Scotland:


In the case of Scotland if a protestor has not complied with police direction in order for them to be prosecuted it must be demonstrated that they knowingly opted to ignore it, where as in England and Wales the defense of not knowingly failing to comply is now removed.

But the bill goes beyond large-scale protests, “assemblies” and “processions” which have a legal description, to imposing conditions on one-person protests [Pg 64].


This is largely believed to be a direct response to Brexit protestor Steve Bray.

These are extraordinarily contradictory moves by Conservatives and another nail in the coffin of the UK as a functioning democracy.
But you don’t have to live in our failed state - plenty of options 👍
 

Gatsbygirl20

Member
Dec 2, 2018
9,999
14,131
The UK isn’t N Korea - you could always move to somewhere you consider better
I lived and worked in the UK when I was a youngster in the Seventies

I found it a very pleasant, tolerant place I must say--and familiar in many ways

London in those days was a wonderful city--it felt like the centre of the world

I had access to contraception, proper health checks, free dental care--which felt great after the cloak-and-dagger, oppressive , hierarchical Catholic set-up in Ireland

Even getting a job was easier. There seemed to be less of that "who do you know? / who did you vote for?" thing

Despite the active IRA campaign , .my interactions with the police were much less frightening than when I later went to live in France and had to deal with the police and the CRS there

I make a distinction between the Tory government and the English people. Not to do that would be a tad racist

Of course I never lived for any great length of time in the UK in the post- Thatcher era
 

Franzoni

Member
Nov 28, 2018
4,504
5,830
Need to find a labour party first.
I think the UK will split before that happens ....

Its very hard te see where any effective opposition in England will come from for the foreseeable future that Scotland and NI currently enjoy....
 

Shaadi

Member
Feb 16, 2019
2,594
2,890
Maybe Failing but not failed ( Scotland hasn't left yet ). The UK could return to somewhere approaching normality by removing the current Tory Govt.

Failing is an ongoing process while being a Failed State is a completed process.
 

Franzoni

Member
Nov 28, 2018
4,504
5,830
Maybe Failing but not failed ( Scotland hasn't left yet ). The UK could return to somewhere approaching normality by removing the current Tory Govt.

Failing is an ongoing process while being a Failed State is a completed process.
Current polling figures would suggest the public have no interest in removing the Tories....

Anyone know if Labour has reached out to any other parties in Westminster or is the kip so polarized to make that impossible ..?
 

midlander12

Member
Dec 4, 2018
3,794
2,558
As the days go on I am now firmly of the opinion that the UK is now a failed state.

Why do I think this? Well there are a number of issues which have threads of their own such as Brexit, the drive for Scottish independence, the fracturing of British Politics, and much much more.

There's also the social changes the country is going through, much of it driven by the issues above:
And now the attack on free speech. This is perhaps the most dangerous one.

It began with Gavin Williamson, the UK's Education Secretary, who proposed appointing a “free speech champion” to fight “unacceptable silencing and censoring” in higher education. Dubbed the "war on Woke". Williamson insisted that “free speech underpins our democratic society”.

Often times the supposed no-platforming/silencing/censoring etc. is not done by universities themselves but by Student Unions, though the two are often deliberately conflated. The proposal will also soecifically target Student Unions, which will be required to take steps to ensure free speech for their members as well as visiting speakers. The government is also looking at bringing student unions, which are currently governed by the Charity Commission, under OfS control.

The proposals have, as one might expect, come under intense criticism by pretty much everyone associated with Higher Education, with the accusation being that the Government is fighting Phantom issues in place of actually doing anything useful or positive for higher education. On that point, I mentioned in another thread the hollowing out research funding in the UK.

But then things take a weird turn. With Williamson pledging to supposedly protect free speech enter the most loathsome Home Secretary the country has ever seen, Pritti Patel.

Earlier this week the Home Office published the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill. In it is a specific section on the policing of protests, which has been revised and the revisions effectively eliminate protests in the UK. That in itself is something incredible, but what is even more distasteful is how it is being done - by literally silencing protestors through amendments to Sections 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act 1986 [Pg 56 of the above-linked document].


What's more, they have also removed the clause where a protector must “knowingly” have failed to comply with police restrictions on protests:


It remains in Scotland:


In the case of Scotland if a protestor has not complied with police direction in order for them to be prosecuted it must be demonstrated that they knowingly opted to ignore it, where as in England and Wales the defense of not knowingly failing to comply is now removed.

But the bill goes beyond large-scale protests, “assemblies” and “processions” which have a legal description, to imposing conditions on one-person protests [Pg 64].


This is largely believed to be a direct response to Brexit protestor Steve Bray.

These are extraordinarily contradictory moves by Conservatives and another nail in the coffin of the UK as a functioning democracy.
But is it even a state, as we know it? Or more an agglomeration of 4 diverse entities, none of which particularly like each other or even get on particularly well internally within their individual entity?

Since 2010 it has been essentially Greater England with the non-English bits gradually pulling away, albeit at very different speeds. Nothing has shown that more than Covid with 4 separate and quite often varying regimes.
 
D

Deleted member 146

Guest
Maybe Failing but not failed ( Scotland hasn't left yet ). The UK could return to somewhere approaching normality by removing the current Tory Govt.
The latest polls show between 42-45% for Conservatives, despite so so many absolutely spectacular fuck ups. They're not going anywhere soon.

Which I suppose raises another issue - the UK's FPTP voting system in which a party who got 43.6% of the vote hold 56% of the seats.

Failing is an ongoing process while being a Failed State is a completed process.
One can fail and get worse.
 
D

Deleted member 146

Guest
But you don’t have to live in our failed state - plenty of options 👍
That's pretty close to the foreigners fuck off home narrative which is all too common since Brexit.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with criticism of the current situation. Though it seems the current government do

It’s also worth pointing out that the issues I raise have all been made worse by the current government and I made no comment on whether or not changes could be made to save it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
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Deleted member 146

Guest
Fair play to you for acknowledging that the North is a failed statelet - the good news is that Britain sees it the same way.
Well... I don’t think that’s fair. Rightly or wrongly NI is subject to its history and it’s taken many years and a lot of cooperation and compromise to get it pretty far from where it was. So under the circumstances I think it’s doing pretty well, albeit in a precarious position.
 

Bonkers

Member
Feb 15, 2019
4,965
4,701
I lived and worked in the UK when I was a youngster in the Seventies

I found it a very pleasant, tolerant place I must say--and familiar in many ways

London in those days was a wonderful city--it felt like the centre of the world

I had access to contraception, proper health checks, free dental care--which felt great after the cloak-and-dagger, oppressive , hierarchical Catholic set-up in Ireland

Even getting a job was easier. There seemed to be less of that "who do you know? / who did you vote for?" thing

Despite the active IRA campaign , .my interactions with the police were much less frightening than when I later went to live in France and had to deal with the police and the CRS there

I make a distinction between the Tory government and the English people. Not to do that would be a tad racist

Of course I never lived for any great length of time in the UK in the post- Thatcher era
The only problem with that is the majority of English people vote Tory. I’ve never met one though that admits it.
 

MOTS

Member
Dec 24, 2019
724
1,062
Well... I don’t think that’s fair. Rightly or wrongly NI is subject to its history and it’s taken many years and a lot of cooperation and compromise to get it pretty far from where it was. So under the circumstances I think it’s doing pretty well, albeit in a precarious position.
I don't agree with your assessment and the North's history since 1920 would back my contention up - but you are free to state otherwise.
 

danger here

Member
Feb 17, 2019
2,644
1,921
Vulkaneifel
I make a distinction between the Tory government and the English people. Not to do that would be a tad racist
I think that's the fairest way of viewing it. A sizable proportion of them individually are sound and reasonable human beings that just want to go to work and come home, like the rest of us. It's just a pity the fatal direction they as a country took politically, very like the US with Trump in many ways.
 

Shaadi

Member
Feb 16, 2019
2,594
2,890
Current polling figures would suggest the public have no interest in removing the Tories....

Anyone know if Labour has reached out to any other parties in Westminster or is the kip so polarized to make that impossible ..?
True, I think Labour aren't ready to concede that they cannot form a new Govt on their own.


I guess the bigger picture is whether the electorate can subsist on Sovereignty alone.

Also Midlander's point about the 4 entities being practically irreconcilable at this stage is a very good point.

Humpty-dumpty and so on.
 

Zen

Member
Dec 5, 2020
506
713
Excellent OP. I would add that the concentrated ownership of the media is a big part of the problem. We've seen what DOB tried here and it is or was very concerning. It's been of a significant magnitude worse in the UK, and long before the fantasies of Brexit started to manifest.

Rather than a failed state, i would suggest it is a libertarian policy taking root there, perhaps somewhat like the US. And therefore, I would suggest, a policy or mindset that must achieve the destruction of the EU to achieve its aims. Or a re-ordering of Europe.
 

ruserious

Member
Dec 4, 2018
5,314
5,152
When you look at some of the world powers, you sometimes stand in awe and respect at some of their achievements and what they stand for. Be it Germany’s rise from the ashes of WWII to being Europe’s economic powerhouse, or the US planning to send astronauts to Mars by 2035. When I think of the U.K., I think of a slowly thawing microwave dinner in the boot of a Vauxhall parked in an Asda car park.
 
D

Deleted member 146

Guest
One of the things that pisses me off with Martin and Varadker is they seem to think they can still do business with Johnson ..

Not a FG voter but I'd rather see Coveney in charge and dealing with that shower than the other two .....
That's a thing Johnson benefits from as did Trump. They were/are wholly inept and untrustworthy and only interested in their own self-aggrandisement but, being elected to lead a country it comes with a sort of in-built/assumed respectability that other leaders take for granted.
 

Clanrickard

Member
Jan 30, 2019
587
69
When you look at some of the world powers, you sometimes stand in awe and respect at some of their achievements and what they stand for. Be it Germany’s rise from the ashes of WWII to being Europe’s economic powerhouse, or the US planning to send astronauts to Mars by 2035. When I think of the U.K., I think of a slowly thawing microwave dinner in the boot of a Vauxhall parked in an Asda car park.
Football. Tennis. Punk Rock. The Beetles. The Industrial Revolution. The Welfare State. Rugby Union. Rugby League. Shakespeare. John Maynard Keynes. Bertrand Russell. Alan Turing. Tim Berners Lee. Computers. The Jet Engine. Badminton. Cricket. Lord Salisbury. Keir Hardie. That's off the top of my head. It is arguable but the ULK has had more of a influence on the modern world than almost any other country. Your post is trite nonsense.
 
D

Deleted member 146

Guest
Football. Tennis. Punk Rock. The Beetles. The Industrial Revolution. The Welfare State. Rugby Union. Rugby League. Shakespeare. John Maynard Keynes. Bertrand Russell. Alan Turing. Tim Berners Lee. Computers. The Jet Engine. Badminton. Cricket. Lord Salisbury. Keir Hardie. That's off the top of my head. It is arguable but the ULK has had more of a influence on the modern world than almost any other country. Your post is trite nonsense.
And recently?
 
D

Deleted member 146

Guest
Unicorns, sunny uplands, taking back control
Even the things which they have achieved, take the COVID vaccine for example, they're now fucking away based on petty xenophobia drummed up by the small-minded and short-sighted current Government.
 

Franzoni

Member
Nov 28, 2018
4,504
5,830
Even the things which they have achieved, take the COVID vaccine for example, they're now fucking away based on petty xenophobia drummed up by the small-minded and short-sighted current Government.
Yup...

It's why i don't get overly concerned on the Indy threads about a small swing in polling against independence as the inability of Boris Trump and his merry band to refrain from taking a leaf out of the FG handbook and walk by a sleeping dog without giving it a kick will resume normal service in due course....
 

Franzoni

Member
Nov 28, 2018
4,504
5,830
That's a thing Johnson benefits from as did Trump. They were/are wholly inept and untrustworthy and only interested in their own self-aggrandisement but, being elected to lead a country it comes with a sort of in-built/assumed respectability that other leaders take for granted.

I can understand showing respect to the office but thinking you can do business with a proven liar and someone who is intent on breaking international agreements when the ink is barely dry on the paper is something else........
 
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